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Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Here are top recommended speeds for .1mm layers:

40mm/sec at 200C

60mm/sec at 210C

80mm/sec at 225C

100mm/sec at 240C

The printer can do double these speeds but with huge difficulty and usually with a loss in part quality due to underextrusion.

60mm/sec infill at 210C should be okay for most PLA and most printers but it's the fastest I like to go for that temp.  I've never printed PLA/PHA but I'm not surprised that it needs a bit more heat.  Note that when you have a 100% infill like this and you overextrude at 110% you run the heavy risk of too much pressure build up - no place for the extra PLA to go so it skips back.  Whereas 110% on a wall should be fine as there is plenty of "air" for that PLA to fill into.

 

Thanks for that info @gr5 I'll keep that in mind. Also I didnt like messing with material flow anyway

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Posted (edited) · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Yep, like i said, the default settings are fine, and the only real settings you need to play with are temp and layer height and speed according to what type of filament you use. Also shell but (again only what in the basic settings) the other stuff is more complicated if you dont know what you are doing you are likely just making things worse.

Im glad temp solved it for you and can confirm raising the temp fixes these problems, especially for colorfabb. I had people telling me my printerwaas faultly when i printed at 50mm/s 0.2layer height at 230, but hey its what worked for me, and the tune button is great for experimenting on the fly.

Edited by Guest
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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Yep, like i said, the default settings are fine, and the only real settings you need to play with are temp and layer height and speed according to what type of filament you use. Also shell but (again only what in the basic settings) the other stuff is more complicated if you dont know what you are doing you are likely just making things worse.

Im glad temp solved it for you and can confirm raising the temp fixes these problems, especially for colorfabb. I had people telling me my printerwaas faultly when i printed at 50mm/s 0.2layer height at 230, but hey its what worked for me, and the tune button is great for experimenting on the fly.

 

Actually it didnt solve my problem, just improved a bit the overall quality, but there are some failures on skins yet, which I couldn't find out the reason yet... However, the infill is way better after the increase to 26% and slowing infill speed to 40mm/s.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

One point just occurred to me is the roll of filament near to the end that is to say very tightly wound round the reel. I had a problem with one roll that caused similar problems, it was initially solved by heating the filament in hot (below boiling) and straightening the filament. The reason this can be a problem is that it causes extra friction in the bowden tube and results in under extrusion.

The long term fix for me was to us a reel holder on the floor

to prove this is or is not the problem you could always cut a length of filament and try straightening it the see what results you get

hope this helps

S

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

I have no issues with curved filament in my bowden tube, but then again i always cut it off the roll so i dont print like most people.

And If im printing 0.1 - 0.06 i have no issues what so ever. Its 0.2 that quality drops and issues arise.

Its when you are rushing that you will run into problems. Sometimes, you just gotta leave it for 54 Hours!

Remember the hotter the plastic the worse quality you will get as the plastic takes longer to cool therefore issues may arise, and thin parts may melt. Besides, if the outer shell looks good, what do you care what the infill looks like, you dont see the infill, as long as the top is OK that is!

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Posted (edited) · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

@gr5 - I am no expert, but having bought over a dozen different brands of filament I have discovered that the speeds you recommend really don't pan out. PLA performance differs wildly between manufacturers and - get this - colours even of the same brand! I have PLA that will not print well below 230C, and I have used two rolls of colorfabb at 210C - 230C and they were both quite different. The lilac was quite buttery, and the green much more viscous. I have blue cheap no-name Chinese stuff that outperforms colorfabb and some similar stuff in orange that is insanely brittle and prints at 220C, and some similar stuff in neon green that sits in between those two extremes. I have some Spanish stuff that is lousy at whatever temperature. My favourite PLA at the moment is black from 3dfilaprint.com. I have not tried their other colours so have no idea if they are any good.

Then in a world of its own I have no-name cheap ABS from the bottom of ebay's barrel. At 30mm/s at 230C the quality is beyond anything I have witnessed so far in PLA by a wide margin. At 260C I have it banging away at 60m/sec up to 80mm/sec and the results are still pretty good.  I haven't tried it any faster than that.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that there is no recommended speed/temperature combo that makes any practical sense. It depends on each filament and one simply has to experiment.

I think that this thread is indicative of what that kind of recommendation can do. If the OP would have simply tried print at 235C or even 240C right at the start, this issue would not have cropped up. In my considered and oh-so-very-humble opinion the "official line" should be something along: Start at 210C/30msec with PLA and 230C/30msec with ABS and then experiment with higher/lower temperatures and lower and higher speeds.

Edited by Guest
Removed a duplicate word and inserted the word "other" in the sentence about 3Dfilaprint.
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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

There is also this thing which can confuse the matter more:

If you print PLA (happily), then change to ABS without performing Atomic Pulls accoding to Epic instructions at www.3dverkstan.se, then residue PLA in the nozzle will cook and carbonize at the higher temperature, and make subsequent printing difficult. The carbon sticks to the walls.

This is one frequently overlooked source of endless big trouble.

It lures people into printing at higher and higher temperatures (which works initially) and then suddenly there just is not enough heat transfer inside the hot end to print anything.

Fix is brush up inside, or if you cannot, lots of atomics possibly with Nylon or something at higher temperature.

I also have the experience that some cheap material is good, but mostly the european stuff totally outperforms!

It is completely true that different colors from same manufacturer can print very differently.

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Posted (edited) · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

@gr5 - I am no expert, but having bought over a dozen different brands of filament I have discovered that the speeds you recommend really don't pan out. PLA performance differs wildly between manufacturers and - get this - colours even of the same brand!

 

I completely agree!  My recommendations only actually work for ultimaker gray and blue.  I have also found different results from different colors from the same manufacturer in fact I'd have to say color maters more than manufacturer! But both are significant.

My recommended speeds are at half the "limit" that I have found for my UMO and my UM2 using UM gray and blue.  I figure they are reasonably conservative for newbies who have a brand new printer and UM brand filament.  But that could be wrong.  I will in the future add a disclaimer.  I also have tested 10 different temp sensors and a few of them are off by 10C!  The rare bad ones appear to always error on the hot side which results in a nozzle cooler than "normal".

Edited by Guest

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

 

@gr5, I think that a newbie guide (with an explanation for why these suggestions are being made) would be a great idea. I have a list of things to put into it, so please feel free to PM if you want to get something off the ground and would like some input.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Newbie guides are too much work. It needs to be a wiki because anyone should be able to add to it. It needs to be very visual so people can quickly scan for their issue. It needs to present simple answers quickly but also in-depth answers for people who need to know more. The best guides so far are these but they aren't a wiki so I can't contribute and they are hosted by a company that may go out of business some day - it needs to be hosted on something that will outlast any of us.

http://support.3dverkstan.se/article/23-a-visual-ultimaker-troubleshooting-guide

http://support.3dverkstan.se/article/30-getting-better-prints

http://support.3dverkstan.se/article/38-designing-for-3d-printing

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Agreed on all points. Now, where on earth can we get such hosting?

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Agreed on all points. Now, where on earth can we get such hosting?

 

@gr5 @danilius

I have an avaiable host. We can try and make this happen if you guys want. I would be more than glad to help and provide as much as I can.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

I have unlimited hosting from bluehost. Quality service. But I don't want to set up a wiki. If I did I'd probably do tikiwiki. It's pretty amazing. But it should be set up on a host that will still be around 10 years later. That people have some confidence in. Someone very good has to get it started or no one will contribute. It's just a ton of work and I don't see it happening at this point.

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Posted (edited) · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Im already doing a tut for printing and changing materials with a deformed coupler and proper atomic pulls. Maybe also applying glue to the plate as its easy. And kicking off a print from cura. Thats about it. Im so sick of hearing people complaining that they cant work their machines or constantly playing around with expert settings before they understand anything. Ive been using my printer since sept/nov and have never needed to go to advanced settings once so i have no idea why most newbies do.

Edited by Guest

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

The guide wouldn't be about settings. It would be about what to do when your printer isn't working right. There are several hundred problems and solutions to things like underextrusion, rods falling out, motors not moving, heater error, temp error, limit switch issues and many others. Also things like how to print multiple parts one-at-a-time, why cura isn't slicing parts of my model, how to improve overhangs, how to improve support, how to finish a part (e.g. sanding, painting, acetone wash), how to deal with a part that is the same dimensions as the absolute printing limit of the machine, nozzle clogs, feeder grinding, printing cups that need to hold water...

There's lots of issues people have. I'm glad it works out of the box for you but some people get "heater error" out of the box.

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Posted (edited) · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

I would suggest a simple

symptom -->  list of likely causes  -->  courses of action

graphical trouble shooting matrix.  Many symptoms have multiple possible causes.  In these cases, the causes are list in the order of highest probability.  Hyperlinks from the matrix could lead to in depth articles about any cause, symptom or solution...

Edited by Guest
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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Fair enough. I guess its a bit cheeky if me complaining about peoples serious issues when i dont really have any or have dealt with any. Ill keep quiet from now on.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

This was the question I was raising. Where will we get hosting that will be of sufficient quality/longevity?

If Ultimaker offered to host such a wiki, that would be a reasonable solution. Another option would be to have it mirrored by several people. I am quite happy to store a wiki on my site for the moment. If we have five or ten such offers, and simple way of mirroring the wiki, that sorts out the problem then and there.

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Posted (edited) · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Here are two vids i made, now im not going to say this is THE way to do it but considering i really have not seen any one doing it it works for me and im being careful. The fact that im holding a camera at the same time makes life VERY difficult for filming. And you may think from the video im being heavy handed, but i am very careful about how much pressure i apply so i dont break anything.

feel free to move this to another thread if you like, or shake your head at the way i do things, lol.

Bad PFTE coupler - removing stuck filament.

 

Atomic Pull, my way, lol.

 

Edited by Guest

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Hi Guys,

I think it is great to see another initiative to get involved and help future users and document things. Like @mastory says, there can usually be 5 different causes for a single problem which make it difficult to document. But maybe we could help as well?

We also have a lot of knowledge and experience.

My colleague @Marrit is also working on various documentations, for example the support pages and I think it could be beneficial if she would be involved as well? She has quite some experience and knowledge as well (after a few years of technical support). Perhaps we can find a way where it works best for everyone, you guys, us and especially our users!

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

People don't want to watch a 9 minute video. If you can edit it down to 30 or 60 seconds that is very helpful. Or practice making the video 5 times before recording. Making good documentation or good video is a lot of work. Unfortunately.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

I deliberately didn't do any edits to show the true time it takes which is what newbies need. I can always do hardcore edited versions for the people who just like gathering knowledge and seeing hows others do things as well so thats no problem. There were a tremendous amounts of edits on the UM atomic pull method on you tube that if i watched it as a newbie, i would be confused, and i don't think pulling out filament slowly is right, as it can leave bits in the stuck around the head.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

There's always a way to present information faster. If they have to wait for the nozzle to cool then show a timer in the video and cut to the part when it's cooler and let them know that X seconds went by.

When the Mac first came out it took something like 8 seconds to boot. Steve Jobs said that was too long - if they could get it one second faster when you multiply by the millions of people using it that will save millions of seconds. I agree with that sentiment. If it takes you 1 minute of editing to save 1 second of useless video and 60 people watch your video then you broke even on wasted time in the world.

When I watch a video where the creator was too lazy to edit it, and I see thousands of views I am annoyed. If only 3 views then well that's fine.

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Posted · Printing Issue - Under-extrusion

Fair point. I guess if you arent smart enough to figure out time passing in a video then i guess you shouldnt be 3d printing.

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