dual extrusion - what's needed?

[alaris2 1]

I'm sure someone asked this before but I can't find the answer now I need it :(

what's the minimum requirement for dual extrusion - new nozzle, heater block, heater, thermistor, bowden tube, extruder + motor.

what else? is the 1.5.6 electronics already set for doing this (I think I remember something about needing a firmware upgrade?)

cheers, nik

[Daid 305]

You need:

* One extra hotend, of the same type you already have. If you have a V1 hotend, then you need to buy 2 V2 hotends. You cannot fit a V1 and V2 hot-end in dual extrusion. (You can buy this from the shop)

* Extra bowden tube (You can also buy this from the shop)

* Extra thermocouple (Not in the shop)

* Extra heater (Not in the shop)

* Extra thermocouple board (Not in the shop)

* Extra V3 Knurled drive bolt. (You can buy this from the shop)

* Extra pololu compatible stepper driver. (Not in the shop)

* Extra NEMA17 high power stepper with JST connector (Not in the shop)

* Extra wooden and derlin parts for the drive, (lasercut design for this is on thingiverse. But also not buyable from the shop)

* This plate to mount the 2nd drive:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31673

You will also need about 6 hours to take everything apart, mount the new things, fit everything, and tweak the results.

You'll also need to remember that dual extrusion is experimental, and that it doesn't work perfect. So you are entering experimental stuff, so expect quite a bit of failed prints.

[alaris2 1]

silly question then but where does one get the heater and thermocouple if they're not in the shop? aren't they custom UM parts?

[Daid 305]

Yes they are. I got them from Ultimaker. You can email support to see if they can supply the extra parts that are not in the shop. I do not know how willing they are in doing that, as they are quite busy already.

[snowygrouch 1]

Hi,

Well this is rather what I thought "open source" was about...I really want to build dual extrusion

so I can use PVA as a support material.

There is no way they are making their own thermocouple and heater, in which case it has a part

number with a company somewhere.

C.

[ian 32]

is makerbots replicator dual print, working OK ? any one know ?

Ian

[alaris2 1]

ahh, busy making that heated bed we're all after I bet!

how about using a resistor and thermistor like the reprap boys do? I imagine this requires some mods to the electronics and firmware to make it work tho - anyone know what's involved?

[snowygrouch 1]

I have no doubt that we can quite easily all "figure it out" and "make something work", the question for me

is rather more that I would prefer an email from UM with 2 part numbers than to spend 1 week worth

of evenings internet trawling and then another month of messing around with firmware and

calibration curves for thermocouples....

So on that note, I will email them now, and ask for said part nunbers. Will report back when I hear something.

C.

[Daid 305]

The thermocouple and heater are custom parts, you cannot order them elsewhere. (You could not even order them from the company that we get them from, as you need to place large orders)

Using a thermister would be easy, you just need to add 1 resistor on the board, there is room for that. R23, R21 or R4 needs to be a 4.5k resistor to use a thermistor for heater1,2 or 3. (And you need to properly configure the firmware)

I'm pretty sure we are willing to supply the correct parts to people that want to experiment. But we won't make a kit till we know it's working up to Ultimaker standards. I'll have a talk with the support people tomorrow to see if I can arrange something.

Makerbot's dual extrusion has the same issue as in my machine, oozing. But their nozzles are more apart, and they don't have a bowden tube, which reduces the issue a bit. Also, they are quite clever with the photos they took. Blue and green don't show mixing that well.

[snowygrouch 1]

ok thanks !

[alaris2 1]

thanks Daid, would rather go that route since just finding a 40W resistor that fits the hole is a pain!

[Daid 305]

Quick word, I'm currently assembling all the required parts for a dual extrusion kit, which we will sell ASAP. But as you know, ASAP might take a week or two at Ultimaker.

[alaris2 1]

that's OK, I can live with a week or two. thanks Daid - let us know on here when it's available would you please?

[snowygrouch 1]

*sound of feet going into the distance towards bank machine to get money out*....

[alaris2 1]

PS. it's more useful if the parts are available separately rather than a 'pack' - I have 3 bowden tubes and most of a V2 nozzle here but the thermocouple, heater and thermocouple board are key missing parts.

[snowygrouch 1]

For Ref: I dont have any of the required parts except an Ultimaker

[Daid 305]

Note that this kit will have a V2 hotend and thus if you do not have a V2 hotend you need to order a V2 hotend with it, as you need 2 of the same hotends (and we no longer stock V1 hotends)

Also, this kit will fit on new machines, which ship with 2 slots for the extruder drive. If you want to fit it on an older machine, you need to cut extra slots yourself or add the plate designed by Jelle.

I'm also trying to arrange that more spare parts are available, but I cannot promise that. It's simply difficult to have a lot of different small things to sell instead of neatly packaged packs.

[fuchs 0]

I'm also trying to arrange that more spare parts are available, but I cannot promise that. It's simply difficult to have a lot of different small things to sell instead of neatly packaged packs.

Sure, but if Ultimaking Ltd can't supply the demanded stuff, maybe there are other distributors or resellers who would like to do that. Like with automobiles - there are car makers who sell "neatly packaged cars" and "option packs" and there is aftermarket stuff (Radios, Navs, Rims, Spoilers etc.).

[alaris2 1]

Note that this kit will have a V2 hotend and thus if you do not have a V2 hotend you need to order a V2 hotend with it, as you need 2 of the same hotends (and we no longer stock V1 hotends)

Also, this kit will fit on new machines, which ship with 2 slots for the extruder drive. If you want to fit it on an older machine, you need to cut extra slots yourself or add the plate designed by Jelle.

I'm also trying to arrange that more spare parts are available, but I cannot promise that. It's simply difficult to have a lot of different small things to sell instead of neatly packaged packs.

ah bummer :( that's going to be very expensive then ;( ;(

the more stuff you have for sale, the more stuff you can sell remember otherwise people look elsewhere or DIY.

cutting extra slots is no big deal, I only just realized I don't have those.

[Daid 305]

Note that this kit will have a V2 hotend and thus if you do not have a V2 hotend you need to order a V2 hotend with it, as you need 2 of the same hotends (and we no longer stock V1 hotends)

Also, this kit will fit on new machines, which ship with 2 slots for the extruder drive. If you want to fit it on an older machine, you need to cut extra slots yourself or add the plate designed by Jelle.

ah bummer :( that's going to be very expensive then ;( ;(

the more stuff you have for sale, the more stuff you can sell remember otherwise people look elsewhere or DIY.

I cannot comment about the price (not my area, I do not deal with the money). You could put a V2 and V1 hotend into a single machine as dual extrusion. But that would require custom wooden plates. However, the chances of plugging with dual extrusion are larger, and thus V2 hotends are recommended anyhow.

[thedudevt 0]

Been waiting for this for 6 months now. I will be refreshing the shop.ultimaker.com link at least twice a day till it's up. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU DAID!

Kyle

EDIT: from what I gather from the MakerFaire, PVA is really hard to use. It is very hygroscopic(sp?) and will become unusable in less than 48 hours out of the bag. I may mock up an enclosure for the reels to reduce moisture transfer... There has also been some posts on the reprap blogs about using ABS as support.. may try that.

-K

[Daid 305]

Note that I have not done a single test with PVA, but what I gathered from Jelle is that it's hard to get PVA to stick to the tape, but sticks quite well to PLA. So laying down a raft of PLA can help, or doing the first layer of support in PLA.

I'm also thinking about making my 2nd extrusion nozzle 0.8mm, this should enable faster printing at low resolution. However, it oozes a lot more.

[Daid 305]

I'll have to report some delay on the dual extrusion.

I tried to assemble it in a machine here, and it does not fully fit. The head with two V2 hotends and the fan cannot fit together.

[msurunner 2]

I'm also thinking about making my 2nd extrusion nozzle 0.8mm, this should enable faster printing at low resolution. However, it oozes a lot more.

What if we went in reverse? What I'm seeing for most of the dual extruder setups, one would either be used for a support material or for a detailed part of the model. What if you used a .2mm nozzle? Then the support material wouldn't be at thick, thus easier to snap/dissolve off, the detailed section would be even more detailed, and we would lower oozing while it sat idle. Just a thought...

[jsamuels 0]

I'm also thinking about making my 2nd extrusion nozzle 0.8mm, this should enable faster printing at low resolution. However, it oozes a lot more.

What if we went in reverse? What I'm seeing for most of the dual extruder setups, one would either be used for a support material or for a detailed part of the model. What if you used a .2mm nozzle? Then the support material wouldn't be at thick, thus easier to snap/dissolve off, the detailed section would be even more detailed, and we would lower oozing while it sat idle. Just a thought...

It would take longer to print the support structure with a smaller nozzle size, and also more force to extrude 3mm filament -> .2mm nozzle.