Unusable results with ABS

[johank 7]

For the support Cura looks down vertically from the areas that need support. If the area in need of support is above the platform support is generated if support is turned on regardless of your support choice. If the part that needs support is above another part of the model you have to use support everywhere to generate that support.

The model in your last picture doesn't look like it needs support anywhere the support would be build from somewhere on the model.

When it comes to troubleshooting have you tried using another spool of PLA filament?

[neotko 1,417]

There's also something Innoted after reading all the posts and answers. You mention you used the atomic method

 

The PLA fragment looks similar to what I got with the "atomic method".

What I don't see you mention it's if you did it properly. Because it isn't something you just do 'once'. It's something you need to do and redo and do again ultil you get a perfectly clear atomic pull. If not, particles of the other filament pla on abs or abs on pla, will stuck ans clog the nozzle. Also, that drips of many prints looks to me preassure changes on the filament extrusion.

You need to think of it as an a pump system. If you get particles on the way of the filament, preassure changes and becomes unstable, so the filament speed deposition changes and makes errors. There are many many factors when printing and the learning curve it's there. As gr5 says any good printer as wasted a good amount of filament just to control the parameters of a brand (not just a kind of plastic). It takes time, experience and aoftware controlto avoid errors and it isn't something that can be done just by doing it, you need to control all the parameters to get consistency and repeatability.

So first thing first.

Do 20 atomics. But before that, get a new nozzle. That one its curved and will never give good prints.

[yellowshark 153]

Couple of points, you did not met ion what temp you used for the atomic pull but I assume you did not/have not got all the ABS out - I saw some under-extrusion on one of the photos.

Also in the earlier posts I read them as being that you felt that the bed levelling was causing your print head to hit the print - to quote you "From what I have noticed, the probability to get bad prints with PLA increases the more narrow the nozzle is to the print bed. It touches overhanging material and rips the printed structures apart."

This has nothing to do with bed levelling - the distance you refer to is the layer height.

[meduza 191]

That nozzle seems absolutely bent, you must really have used overly force when attaching or removing that nozzle. You do only need slight torque (0.3Nm or so) when fastening the nozzles, and they should always be removed hot (at least 100C)

[gr5 2,167]

It does look bent in the photo but that could be lens distortion.  If the bottom of the nozzle isn't flat it can knock parts over plus the quality will be pretty bad.  I suspect the nozzle was fine when you printed the most recent photo because it doesn't look like I would expect from a bent nozzle (really ugly walls).

So why did it stop suddenly?  I see those angled support pieces started to fail - that particular failure is usually caused by not enough fan.  For ABS you will need at least a little fan - I recommend 30% to 50% for ABS.  For PLA you will want 300% fan but unfortunately it only goes to 100% so go with that.  Fan is your friend for keeping tilted things from failing.

Or did something else fail?  I'm guessing it was those 2 leaning parts?  And you aborted the print?  It helps us if we don't have to guess what went wrong - if you tell us explicitly what happened e.g. "the power suddenly failed and the lights stayed on but the printer just stopped" or "I aborted the print because I was nervous things were going badly" or "it started making spaghetti everywhere but I removed that before I took the picture - just to mess with your heads".

Those tilted support things will be difficult to print.  You want the bed on the cool side - 50C to 60C at the most if PLA (90C-100C if abs) - the filament also on the cool side - 210C would be good for PLA (but then this means you need to print slower - probably 35mm/sec) and keep fans at 100% (if this is PLA) until those tricky parts are joined to the rest making everything more stable.  Every print has some minor challenge.  Eventually you will know how to deal with all the minor challenges and will get perfect prints every time.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Guest

[peggyb 169]

Judging the fail in the last picture: the 2 pieces on the outside came loose from the bed (right?) Dial the screws underneath the bed a quarter up when the print starts with the brim.

Want to be sure the prints stay on the bed? Tape the brim to the bed (duct tape or any other wide tape) Don't press too hard on the bed or it will ruin the layer being printed.

Keep your nozzle clean on the outside as well, when it is dirty as in your picture it starts to drag other debris around. Just wipe it clean when hot with a rag or paper towel (if is is warm the paper sticks to the nozzle)

[gr5 2,167]

Oh!  I take it all back!  Looking at the picture carefully I agree - the outer two parts appear to have come up off the bed.

BY THE WAY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL IF YOU ADDED A SENTENCE EXPLAINING THE FAILURE.  The picture is very helpful but pointing out the exact issue would have helped.

If I am correct - and this is the issue (the parts tilted) then the solution is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.  The problem is related to getting parts to stick and clearly you aren't squishing your plastic enough.  You have lots of brim - that's good.  But you need to level the bed a little *closer*.   Turn the 3 levelins screws 1/2 turn counter clockwise as seen from below.

By the way I checked and the UM2+ and UM2ext+ has THREE (3) leveling screws.  Not 2.  The third one is way in the back - hard to see if you don't get your head down there and look.

So: please! Stop using the leveling pricedure. Instead use the 3 screws for fine adjustments. Your bed is already level - you just need to adjust the distance for the bottom layer to get your parts to stick better.

This is kind of hilarious. The most common problem people have with the printer is getting the parts to stick to the bed. That's one of my earliest posts in this thread - how to get parts to stick but then we got off on all kinds of tangents and are now back to the beginning. Parts need to stick well!

Edited March 8, 2016 by Guest

[asb 7]

Here is an update.

The last two prints with PLA were successful. From yesterday:

From today:

That quality suffices for my requirements. So I guess I'm back to where I started before attempting to use ABS. I guess all the trouble was caused by a dirty and/or misaligned nozzle, somehow caused by using ABS. When the spool of Ultimaker PLA filament is empty, I will try ABS again, then we will know if the damages can be reproduced.

I got a response from the vendor. They don't know the UM2+ and forward questions directly to the distributor (who doesn't know the filament the vendor is selling). The distributor told me a couple of months ago that they don't know anything about the Linux version of Cura as they have never used it. The lack of professional knowledge, combined with the insufficient documentation, is scary. Basically, this forum is the only source for qualified knowledge about usage of these devices.

Regarding the print I aborted, there was no power outage. The brim became loose and the support structures tilted, resulting in spiderwebs starting to clog the print. I don't think that this has anything to the with the UM2+, the object is just too complicated and needs additional support or whatever. Trying to duct tape the brim is worth a try.

Yes, there is a third leveling screw at the back of the printer. I can not turn it by hand, and during print bed leveling, the rear end is adjusted from the front with the jog dial. I don't even know if the read screw is supposed to be handled manually or if I loose warranty by toucing it. Doing anthing with the two front screws during a print just doesn't work for me. It ruins the print immediately. I need to figure out something else for the problematic objects, like the suggested duct tape.

Since this thread originally was about issues with ABS, I will continue to update is as soon as I attempt to use ABS again.

Regarding the InMoov printing, I think I will open a new thread as this (highly interesting) project seems to be not too well known over here. It's about 3D printing a life-sized robot with articulated fingers, moveable neck and arms, including object recognition, speech synthesis, voice recognition, embedding sensors and so on. It's a real challenge beyond just printing the parts ;-)

Edited March 9, 2016 by Guest

[gr5 2,167]

I'm sorry your third screw doesn't turn. Maybe the thread is bound or it needs some copper grease (it gets hot so you can't use regular oil).

You will continue to have parts coming loose from the bed (occasionally - not every print) until you figure out a good way to turn that 3rd screw or you level with no paper at all or somewhere between. I believe this is the root cause of most of your issues (but definitely not all) above.

UM has a history of users hacking the machines - UM is open source software, and open source hardware, UM used to encourage taking the machine apart and playing with it. I suspect they still do. I'm not sure what the policy is today but in general they prefer you fix it and they only mail you the broken part(s) versus paying for shipping an entire printer. Especially since usually the solution is something as simple as "turn the 3 screws 1/4 turn CCW". I believe there is a single sticker that warns you not to touch a certain part of the product without calling tech support. I believe that sticker is on the heating connectors for the heated bed. I believe this is the *only* thing that you can mess with that might violate warranty. And after you talk to them on the phone even that can be taken apart.

Well I know for sure that if you take something apart and break something while taking it apart that isn't covered either.

[peggyb 169]

keep going on!!

it is nice to have some company......

[asb 7]

keep going on!!

it is nice to have some company......

Oh my, what a handsome guy! :-)

How long are you working on him (hmm, or "it")?

Here is the InMoov thread.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Guest

[peggyb 169]

This was not my project but a former colleague, we worked together in a private makerspace that had to shut its doors last summer :(

He worked on it for about a year, with other projects as well, but it is still not finished...

I had to take 'him' to a lecture and just strapped him in the carseat. No idea if somebody noticed it, had to keep my eyes on the road....

[gr5 2,167]

Hi Peggy I will be in Netherlands June 29-July4. I hope to see you again! Sander is organizing some kind of community weekend thing like last time but slightly bigger (about 10 people are going).

[peggyb 169]

Nice! I would like to see you, but I didn't get an invitation......:(

Sure hope to hear something about this...

[gr5 2,167]

That's because you are local. Sander will eventually plan out what will happen each day and maybe a week before he will probably invite everyone locally to come meet just like last time.

[asb 7]

So, I' back to printing with the ABS filament. The distributor told me that I have to switch to 250°C on the nozzle, 100°C on the print bed, fans switched off during printing.

With some planless clickiing through the menus I entered these settings (I believe) and printing with ABS started to work quite well. After a couple of days I had to switch off the printer, the settings are gone and I can not find anymore where I entered them.

Again I can not find anything in the PDF manual or in the updated online docs at https://ultimaker.com/en/manuals/.

Does anyone know where I can enter these values correctly, and how I could permanently overwrite the borked factory profile for ABS?

Thanks!

[gr5 2,167]

Go to the filament menu and choose ABS, then choose "customize" (something like that).

Change all the settings you care about then save it and it will seem to be done BUT IT IS NOT - you have to choose which filament to save into so chose ABS again. now it is saved. To be sure, turn off the power and turn it back on, select PLA and then select ABS again. Before you click the final button it will show you the filament settings for that type of filament (it changes every few seconds to show you all the parameters).

If you want to do very detailed customizations with your own names (e.g. ninjaflex) you have to save all the settings to the SD card, edit that on a computer and load them back in. I've never done this step.

Having said all that, zero fan for ABS is okay for parts that have only vertical walls but for 90% of parts you need a little bit of fan to get reasonable quality. The absolute minimum where the fan blades turn is best - somewhere around 10 to 30%.

[asb 7]

Go to the filament menu and choose ABS, then choose "customize" (something like that). Change all the settings you care about then save it and it will seem to be done BUT IT IS NOT - you have to choose which filament to save into so chose ABS again.  now it is saved.

Thanks, I guess that's what I have tried:

Material -> Settings -> Customize

In "Customize" sub-menu I change to: "Temperature: 0.60" (= 260°C), "Heated buildplate: 100°C" and "Fan: 0%". then "Store as preset", select "ABS". Return.

Switch off printer, select "ABS", settings are gone (lower temperature, fans are turning).

OK, now I try to keep the printer on, let's see if printing ABS still works (it did for a couple of days) or if something else is interfering again. I could print all parts from http://inmoov.fr/neck-and-jaw/inmoov-stl-parts-viewer/?bodyparts=Neck in ABS with 0% fan, and I think the parts are quite OK.

Btw, here is another object that I totally failed to print so far: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:172505

[gr5 2,167]

If the "store as preset" followed by selecting "ABS" does not work - this is a known bug which has cropped up a few times. What version of the firmware do you have? If it's more than a year old then upgrade to the latest. If it is the latest version then, I'm sorry - the best fix is to save to SD card and do some major editing. More details here:

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/19700-what-are-the-various-parameters-in-the-materialtxt-file#reply-136309

[rebekah_harper 60]

Just to add my two pence.

Build this:

It's on thingiverse.

ABS needs a more controlled environment due to the cooling stages and shrinkage.

Then add Buildtak, it's a print bed covering. Very good stuff.

Then print at normal settings 108 on the build plate and 230 on the nozzle.

Enclosure is essential. The plexi glass cost me £40,- cut to sizes.

[ultiarjan 1,223]

or if you want it really cheap

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/ultimaker2-top-cover-clips

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/um2-minimalist-front-panel

I just use glue for ABS (cubestick) works fine. 230 is pretty cold for most ABS I tried.... but it varies a lot per brand. When you use USB for the higher temperature resistance you probably want to use the stuf with a softening temperature around 100c, this i print around 260c or hotter.

[rebekah_harper 60]

Wow, I'm surprised by that. I've only gone as high as 235c for ABS which is higher than most manufacturers recommend but I do it for the finer nozzles.

[ultiarjan 1,223]

Below the advise for Makerpoint.nl ABS (this is a home brand thats sold under many names, also as house brand of other 3d print stores...) I use a E3Dv6 for these temperatures... But you should also be able to go pretty high with the teflons from http://3dsolex.com/

[rebekah_harper 60]

fair one,

with that said, I thought I'd google ABS temperature 3D printing and it varies from 230 upto your suggestion.

I am getting perfect prints at 230 so I ask the question:

Is there a higher temp requirement due to the filament diameter? if so does that mean I am straining my machine?

[ultiarjan 1,223]

I only used 2.85 fillament, it's mainly the combination of material, nozzle-size, layer-height & printspeed.

With lower temps (or to much fan) it's easy to get bad layer bonding... it's all a matter of trial and error...

I think the Ultimaker abs has a softening temp around 80c, and can be printed around 240c.