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Pinpointing under extrusion problem


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Posted (edited) · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

I'm having a problem which seems pretty clearly to be under extrusion. I'm having trouble figuring out where the problem is, though I'm trying to troubleshoot as best I can.

I've got a new UM2 extended. I recently installed the extruder upgrade kit. the machine has only printed 43 meters of filament (maybe 100 hours)

There is a sporadic knocking that comes from the feeder. When I first started having the problem it was really quite loud sometimes. The noise is the feeder skipping. I started this large print of some teeth a few days back. It started great, but then deteriorated to the point where nothing was coming out.

batjaw-side.thumb.jpg.6928c7c2a4cb6e5ffe28bf05f5760d8c.jpg[/media]

• I did an "atomic" cleaning of the nozzle, took the filament feeder apart and cleaned it. Everything seemed fine, but as soon as I start printing, the knocking comes back.

• Since I upgraded to the new feeder the filament is not getting chunks ground out of it. It's just skipping.

• I switched nozzle sizes (tried .25 and .08). No change.

• Switched to a brand new 4.0 nozzle. No change.

• I've taken the filament feeder apart twice more.

• I have tried different pressure settings on the feeder

• Switched back from the Hatchbox white PLA I was using to the ultimaker silver that came with the printer. I've gotten good prints with both...just not since this problem started.

The only thing I can imagine at this point is that there's a bottleneck close to the nozzle that's causing the issue, but I figured I'd check in with you guys to see if this is familiar at all. I feel like I've tried everything I've read about except for taking the print head assembly apart - and I'm leery of doing that because of the notes on 3DVerkstan, "On the Ultimaker2+ the spring above the PTFE has been replaced with a static spacer. Because of this it is critical that the distance between the two metal plates is correct or you can run into problems. A little tool will be made available to measure this distance in the future. In the mean time you should know that the rigid spacer and the updated material in the coupler means it will last longer than the original so it is a good idea to check for other causes of your problems first." (http://support.3dverkstan.se/article/56-replacing-the-ptfe-coupler)

As far as damage to the coupler, I've only used PLA on this printer, and it's never been hotter than 120c

Here are some images of the (failed) filament duster I was trying to print, followed by some video showing the low end of the knocking I'm seeing.

filament-cleaner1.thumb.jpg.f645adb8f0c0bd3cd3a003341ff2c6ec.jpgfilament-cleaner2.thumb.jpg.e69b63ddbbadc61dc85c635fc3e94940.jpgfilament-cleaner3.thumb.jpg.06cba414d47e4e1be60d3824cc643846.jpgfilament-cleaner4.thumb.jpg.dc4ec7e56881529346c211c062cb162e.jpg

A second attempt which I stopped pretty quickly:

filament-cleaner5-second-print.thumb.jpg.36c0babba4196b8846eeb0f658eec5d6.jpg

and video of the slipping - though this is tame. Sometimes it's really loud, really steady, or sounds like someone grinding their teeth. If I understand the process, it still executes retractions fine. I can't correlate the skipping to anything accept that the filament has no where to go, so the gear is slipping.

http://goo.gl/Ffg4sU

Oh - and my Cura settings. I went simple for this, though I've seen the same problem with simplify3D files as well.

cura-settings.thumb.jpg.ee7420562d614841672a74c1903f050c.jpg

Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can share!

PS: I have found that if I gently push the filament the print stays fairly normal...but I have to assume I'm working against the natural functioning of the printer. I'm also utterly incapable of maintaining pressure for and hour, much less five or six.

PPS: Also just installed the Cura and firmware updates for the 2+ extended. It didn't make any difference.

batjaw-side.thumb.jpg.6928c7c2a4cb6e5ffe28bf05f5760d8c.jpg

filament-cleaner1.thumb.jpg.f645adb8f0c0bd3cd3a003341ff2c6ec.jpg

filament-cleaner2.thumb.jpg.e69b63ddbbadc61dc85c635fc3e94940.jpg

filament-cleaner3.thumb.jpg.06cba414d47e4e1be60d3824cc643846.jpg

filament-cleaner4.thumb.jpg.dc4ec7e56881529346c211c062cb162e.jpg

filament-cleaner5-second-print.thumb.jpg.36c0babba4196b8846eeb0f658eec5d6.jpg

cura-settings.thumb.jpg.ee7420562d614841672a74c1903f050c.jpg

Edited by Guest
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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Check out my hardware problem section, I did the same thing and after 9 hours I got this as well. Its a pain and I even sent my machine back to UM and they changed the feeder (I changed every possible thing) it worked for them for 5 hours and sent it back to me and I got about an hour of printing before it started doing it again.

    we(myself and UM support) think this is a feeder issue, you are the second person I know to have this same problem. keep me posted of what you are doing.

    good luck!

    Matt

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    can you post a picture of the feeder outlet? (remove the Bowden tube and filament) we have a theory that the filament is rubbing on the plastic guide just before the Bowden tube.

    mine is rounded out so curious to what yours looks like after 100 hrs.

    thanks!

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    The last two pictures show what I'm talking about! The plastic is rubbing against it and I think that's what's causing the problem. Thanks for posting that up, I think this needs to be brought up to UM so they can send out a fix. Might need a metal bushing like on the bottom.

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    Posted (edited) · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Did you read the post on the popping/skipping? I think that's more likely the problem you're seeing. I took my feeder box off and took some measurements and it looks like the two gears barely cross each other - and in fact I can turn the slotted screw head that turns the gear and I get the same skipping - with no filament in the feeder. I measured less than 1/32" of overlap in the gears, so if there's much pressure at all it just skips. The overlap on mine is less than the thickness of the metal plate the feeder mounts onto the ultimaker with.

    Edited by Guest
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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Did you read the post on the popping/skipping? I think that's more likely the problem you're seeing. I took my feeder box off and took some measurements and it looks like the two gears barely cross each other - and in fact I can turn the slotted screw head that turns the gear and I get the same skipping - with no filament in the feeder. I measured less than 1/32" of overlap in the gears, so if there's much pressure at all it just skips. The overlap on mine is less than the thickness of the metal plate the feeder mounts onto the ultimaker with.

     

    Hello,

    My English is (taken a translation program to help) not good.

    I had a similar problem.

    The mistake was having the adapter plate much tolerance (big holes), and I had screwed my adapter plate at the bottom.

    Loess times the four screws slightly (so that it can just move so) pushing the feeder back on it and try to push up.

    I hope it is understandable.

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    well everyone I can say I have fixed the problem! with a lot of trial and error the problem is the actual feeder! I am actually printing parts for the first time in 3 weeks because I put my old feeder system back on! I will be contacting UM for a full refund.

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Wait - so you put the original feeder back on? I had grinding with mine - but I'm tempted to do the same thing just so I can print.

     

    well everyone I can say I have fixed the problem! with a lot of trial and error the problem is the actual feeder! I am actually printing parts for the first time in 3 weeks because I put my old feeder system back on! I will be contacting UM for a full refund.

     

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Do you mean the metal plate the filament feeder attaches to the ultimaker with? If I didn't have that on there I could see it working...but then I'd have to figure out how to attach the feeder to the ultimaker.

     

    Hello,

    My English is (taken a translation program to help) not good.

    I had a similar problem.

    The mistake was having the adapter plate much tolerance (big holes), and I had screwed my adapter plate at the bottom.

    Loess times the four screws slightly (so that it can just move so) pushing the feeder back on it and try to push up.

    I hope it is understandable.

     

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    yeah I put the old system back on and fixed my problem! after 3 weeks I'm tired of having a broken printer. UM will have to do a lot of refunds I think!

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    Posted (edited) · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    yeah I put the old system back on and fixed my problem! after 3 weeks I'm tired of having a broken printer. UM will have to do a lot of refunds I think!

     

    So you upgraded a UM2 to a 2+ with the extruder upgrade kit, and now went back to the old black feeder? Did you also have to change the print head back? I got the upgrade kit ($395), but that included the new print head and fan and Ollson block. Did you just leave those on?

    I'll do that - though it'll suck to go back to grinding filament, maybe that'll last long enough to try one of the other downloadable filament feeder upgrades out there.

    Edited by Guest
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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    well printing is better then not printing, I'm already in contact with support and they will be raising the issue to UM in the Netherlands. I think the fix is a metal sleeve that will slide into the Bowden tube and help guide the filament into the start of the Bowden tube rather then that plastic guide they used.

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Do you mean the metal plate the filament feeder attaches to the ultimaker with? If I didn't have that on there I could see it working...but then I'd have to figure out how to attach the feeder to the ultimaker.

     

    Hello,

    My English is (taken a translation program to help) not good.

    I had a similar problem.

    The mistake was having the adapter plate much tolerance (big holes), and I had screwed my adapter plate at the bottom.

    Loess times the four screws slightly (so that it can just move so) pushing the feeder back on it and try to push up.

    I hope it is understandable.

     

     

    Here's a video.

     

    This tolerance I mean. I had it tightened for the first time at the bottom!

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    its private lol what you trying to show on here???? HAHAHA

    I will post a drawing of what the fix might have to look like but will need an all new feeder unit.

    might as well put on your old system and start printing again!

    good luck

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

     

    Do you mean the metal plate the filament feeder attaches to the ultimaker with? If I didn't have that on there I could see it working...but then I'd have to figure out how to attach the feeder to the ultimaker.

     

    Hello,

    My English is (taken a translation program to help) not good.

    I had a similar problem.

    The mistake was having the adapter plate much tolerance (big holes), and I had screwed my adapter plate at the bottom.

    Loess times the four screws slightly (so that it can just move so) pushing the feeder back on it and try to push up.

    I hope it is understandable.

     

     

    Here's a video.

     

    This tolerance I mean. I had it tightened for the first time at the bottom!

     

    It makes sense to align the big inner circles indeed...

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    I see what you are saying, I didn't have any issues with that part mine went together like a dream I just made sure it was lined up first.

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Here's a video.

     

    This tolerance I mean. I had it tightened for the first time at the bottom!

     

    Ah! That makes sense. The plate on mine is on nice and tight, but there is still not enough connection between the gears to stop the skipping. :(

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    Posted (edited) · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    I've taken the feeder apart and put it together six times now...and it's definitely that gearing that was the problem, so I'm grateful for the help pinpointing the issue. I think I'll go back to the old feeder - then try to print one of these:

    https://www.youmagine.com/designs/alternative-um2-feeder-version-two

    https://www.youmagine.com/designs/yet-another-ultimaker-2-feeder

    I really like the idea of being able to watch the filament going through. Makes it easier to see what's going on.

    Now I just have to see what parts of the upgrade kit I can keep and what I have to change.

    Edited by Guest
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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    I would really advice to stick with the + feeder, and solve the issue... it's just so much more powerful than the direct drive feeder.

    I agree it's nice to be able to see the filament, but for me it's not enough of a benefit to go back to the direct drive....

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    Posted (edited) · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    I would really advice to stick with the + feeder, and solve the issue... it's just so much more powerful than the direct drive feeder.

    I agree it's nice to be able to see the filament, but for me it's not enough of a benefit to go back to the direct drive....

     

    I'd love to - I just don't know how to fix the problem. The gears are too far apart, and there's no problem with any part of it not being tight enough - the gear just isn't thick enough. The two gears only overlap by around .8 mm, so it keeps skipping. It's under extruding constantly. This is what's happening (sorry about the radio being on):

    http://www.larsgrantwest.com/p788332907/h7398E444#h7398e444

    Edited by Guest
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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Do you have a photo of this place.

    image.jpeg

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    I did notice your feeder pressure is way to lose, its supposed to be right in the middle.

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    I did notice your feeder pressure is way to lose, its supposed to be right in the middle.

     

    When I was trying to nail down the problem I started with it in the middle, started a print, worked my way all the way to the bottom then back to the top as the print was happening to see if it would make a difference, but it didn't seem to make a bit of difference.

    Good eye though! :)

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    Posted · Pinpointing under extrusion problem

    Do you have a photo of this place.

    image.jpeg

     

    Not mounted to the machine. I've got one nut that keeps coming loose and I was too lazy to glue it, so I took the thing off each time...always thinking that would be the last time.

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