PIB polybenzimidazole Isolator Coupler

[gudo 246]

Hi to all

 

We all know the life time problem and its collateral damages of the PTFE isolator coupler, especialy when it used  in continuous hight temp extrusions 260 to 300 ° over a bit over

Here is a first feedback from the use of an insulator made with PBI polymer

The goal is to test first this polymer matérial for PLA material without no sticking problem issues, the tests I done are very positive.... It works great !

some pics with a PLA extrusion work

With 425° best mechanical properties  ! now it's possible to achieve a very compact print head with the all in 1 part isolator coupler, as I described before a customized print head project in an other post :  

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/21359-re-design-the-print-head-to-centre-the-nozzle

It's almost ready to go further in testing, time to achieve the assembly and to mount it on the UM2

the pic shows the " PIB "  print head closed to be finished, the stock heat block, it's just for sample, the Olsson block and fans are planned

[00D00B 58]

Very intresting topic !

Please get us in touch, I would be pleased to follow your tests with PBI and maybe get you one then

[gudo 246]

Very intresting topic !

Please get us in touch, I would be pleased to follow your tests with PBI and maybe get you one then

 

Hi 00D00B

Thanks ! no proplemo ! I just advice that it's a homebuilt personal project, it's for for fun !

[00D00B 58]

Yes I understand but great improvments are always for fun at the beginning

Keep going !

[gudo 246]

Hi to all

Going further with the PIB  concept and tests.

PLA material is known for its sticking & frictional extrusion issues solved by PTFE use, which have to works on it hight temp limit.

PIB polymer seems to solve  many problems !.... may be other new issues will appear,  future test checks will have to do...

However, the first test is very encouraging !

2 main parts vs this

clip the fans set & connect the thermal sensor and the heater cartridge

In work

 

[neotko 1,417]

What are that thinks on the bed for? Impressive work men!

[gudo 246]

What are that thinks on the bed for? Impressive work men!

 

Thanks Neotko !

The thinks visible back on the bed are a outstanding project for optimize and rigidify better the overhang bed tray support with fine level adjustable rods, it's not yet completed

[00D00B 58]

Still very nice ! I'm gonna follow every post in this thread for sure !

D'où viens-tu Gudo ? Je vois que t'es en France (:

[gudo 246]

Still very nice ! I'm gonna follow every post in this thread for sure !

D'où viens-tu Gudo ? Je vois que t'es en France (:

 

Merci à toi !

Je suis basé dans les Yvelines plus exactement à Andrésy, à 200m. devant mes fenêtres j'ai vue sur le confluent Seine et Oise

[DidierKlein 729]

Nice work gudo!

A little question on the new head thing, if i understood well, the black part is fully made of PIB? How do you fix the Olsson Block inside? Is there any heat break between the two elements?

I really like that design it's very smart and looks pretty compact which is nice! Keep up the good work

[gudo 246]

Nice work gudo!

A little question on the new head thing, if i understood well, the black part is fully made of PIB? How do you fix the Olsson Block inside? Is there any heat break between the two elements?

I really like that design it's very smart and looks pretty compact which is nice! Keep up the good work

 

Hi Didier thanks !

What is the most interesting with the PIB, is that the possibility to make the coupler in only 1 piece, with a 3.2mm hole through, nothing else, in its top side the coupler is screwed to XY carrier and locked with an annular threaded ring, then the heat block is screwed directely in its other side, like it's screwed in the stock inox isolator,

the coupler heat sink design shape is large enough for getting a very effective heat break.

[gudo 246]

Replicating fans shrouds prints,

PLA "Polymax" from Polymaker

0.1mm layers,  200° print temp, 30% infill, no supports.

the hot end fan shroud at 50 mm/s speed

the dual fan shroud at 60 mm/s speed

I notice the extrusion is very fluent and feel that I can down the flow rate

 

 

[DidierKlein 729]

Cool thanks for the answers!

I'm guessing that machining something like this can be quite expensive? Do you have any idea of how much it costs?

[geert_2 558]

This all sounds very interesting.

A question: how difficult is it to machine this Celazole PBI in reality? And how resistant is it to breaking or chipping, by your experience? I read in the specs above that it might require special tools? But to me it is not totally clear if that applies to high speed, high volume serial production only, or also to small scale production?

And if you would print high temp materials like nylon or ABS-PC blend (270°C), does it still deform, or not at all?

[gudo 246]

Cool thanks for the answers!

I'm guessing that machining something like this can be quite expensive? Do you have any idea of how much it costs?

 

Machining will not no more expensive than machining hight grade steel or inox

that would cost about 100/110 € if machining 1 or 2 parts

the cost is also on the  PIB Polymer, I paid 362€ all included for getting the  PBI bore  305mm L x 19mm dia. the all in 1 coupler has 37mm long, so about 44€ material cost.

In the 2 cases the cost will depend of the qty.

For printer makers that would be interesting in mass production !? especially if 1 part can replace 3 or 4 different parts ? but less spare parts to sell

[gudo 246]

This all sounds very interesting.

A question: how difficult is it to machine this Celazole PBI in reality? And how resistant is it to breaking or chipping, by your experience? I read in the specs above that it might require special tools? But to me it is not totally clear if that applies to high speed, high volume serial production only, or also to small scale production?

And if you would print high temp materials like nylon or ABS-PC blend (270°C), does it still deform, or not at all?

 

I think they mean in high volume serial production,

homebuilt machining in my case, I machined more with care than with difficulty, with high quality tools used for hard steel, titane or inox machining,  

I don't know how limit that will resist to break, I don't try crash test  

I don't test other materials than PLA yet, time to perform some details in the prototype design, I have only one printer, I need to keep it operational before going further .

[neotko 1,417]

I love your modular design. Looks like everypart can be taken apart quite fast.

If you can machine a 1.75mm version (with 2mm inner dia) I would more than happy pay for it. But I can't go for your full hotend design, but just a ptfe coupler style, so I can replace one in my machines. I have 3 UMO+, two have um2 hotends and I plan to change the third umo+ to um2 hotend since it just prints better. So if you want, I pay for the parts so you don't keep draining cash. I have mostly pla, pla-tec, carbonfill and glowfill as my main materials. Also I have a small batch of test materials like nylon and polymax nowood-wood filament. I just don't have abs to test since I don't like materials that release nasty stuff.

I think if we make a small pool of people willing to pay a test part, we could test @gudo development if he it's willing to machine some for us.

So... I want one!

@gudo could you test retraction distance on the hotend? I just wonder how much or less dripping that hotend has. Also I would love to test how low temp printing fast that system could allow. Since your fullhotend solution has only 2 parts that should allow for faster prints since there's less chances of the filament hitting anything on the way until the 'hot area'. Also I wonder how much/less dripping that makes.

[gudo 246]

@gudo could you test retraction distance on the hotend? I just wonder how much or less dripping that hotend has. Also I would love to test how low temp printing fast that system could allow. Since your fullhotend solution has only 2 parts that should allow for faster prints since there's less chances of the filament hitting anything on the way until the 'hot area'. Also I wonder how much/less dripping that makes.

 

Hi Neotko

Ok ! I 'll try , have you an object to print for sample to suggest ?

[neotko 1,417]

 

@gudo could you test retraction distance on the hotend? I just wonder how much or less dripping that hotend has. Also I would love to test how low temp printing fast that system could allow. Since your fullhotend solution has only 2 parts that should allow for faster prints since there's less chances of the filament hitting anything on the way until the 'hot area'. Also I wonder how much/less dripping that makes.

 

Hi Neotko

Ok ! I 'll try ,  have you an object  to print for sample to suggest ?

 

While calibrating my first um2 1.75 hotend I did run some tests using s3d. Also published a long post (or monologue..).

I found out that 2.5-2.7mm it's more than enough for most cases and 3.2 it's just perfect. The advantage for small retractions it's that you lower the chances of grinding the filament since there's less material moved on each one, and I need heavy retracts for my stuff.

So:

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/20403-umo-2-um2-hotend-retract-calibration

I suppose this could be done on lastest cura.

[gudo 246]

Since the beginning my UM2 extended ( not +) works with Cura 15.04.3 and with the Bondtech feeder, the 24w cartridge is still in use also, I mainly printed with PLA and PLA wood,   and I never get grinding issues or other boring problems, as it works well, I preffered to do more on hardware design researchs and prototype tests before take time to play with software updates and Gcode, I have to learn more in this side to manage comfortable these things.

The retractation tests would be not similar if it done with the stock UM2 feeder ?

With the Bondtech feeder  depending the 2.85 PLA quality used the retractation distance played between 8 to 10 mm, now with the PIB head I reduce by the half 4mm with better result, absolutely no oozing ! it appear under 3mm, the feeder motor is much less hot also.

I think also that the retractation distance depends on the inner diameter size of the bowden tube, more if it closed to the 3mm less  distance will need to retract.

[00D00B 58]

That's a very badass topic.

As neotko said, at least just a "teflon-like" coupler in PIB would be very nice !

this material sounds awesome and finaly not that expansive because if I understand well, machining a complete hotend would cost almost the same price as the full metal does.

[meduza 191]

finaly not that expansive because if I understand well, machining a complete hotend would cost almost the same price as the full metal does.

This is not correct, what is said above is that the _machining_ should not be that much more expensive than machining high grade steel, but high-grade steel are more expensive than machining aluminium.

The material cost compared to aluminium are trough the roof tough, a meter of 20mm aluminium rod might be about 10€, and a meter of 20mm PBI rod is about 1000€, so the material cost is x100 compared to a traditional all-metal hotend.

If a company were to sell a full hotend, it would probably cost a few hundred €

Edited July 7, 2016 by Guest

[gudo 246]

@gudo could you test retraction distance on the hotend? I just wonder how much or less dripping that hotend has. Also I would love to test how low temp printing fast that system could allow. Since your fullhotend solution has only 2 parts that should allow for faster prints since there's less chances of the filament hitting anything on the way until the 'hot area'. Also I wonder how much/less dripping that makes.

 

Hi to all

I'm always in playing with the PIB to learn more and to better understand the behavior of this polymer,

I improved especially the hot end fan shroud, it gets here a great importance for the heat break zone size, the cold/ hot transition must be as short as possible ! I print yet still with the PLA, the print head prototype, XY support and fan shrouds, , they are just painted with car wheel ring silver paint.

to partially answer Neotko and to get some expert opinions on this printing part of the Ultimaker robot scaled to 1.5

Classic Cura settings : 0.4nozzle, 0.1mm layers, 1.2mm thick wall/top/bottom, 25%infill, 50mm/s speed, 55° bed temp, 205° print temp, 2h20 print time.

and 2.5mm rétractation distance at 45mm/s

[gudo 246]

[neotko 1,417]

Wow the cold/hotzone must be really small. That's fantastic