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Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

I would love to, but not sure if I can help UM2 users much since I use UMO+ with UM2 hotend. Don't know any good channels for S3D, maybe someone does? I did learn by reading every single button description and many many test.

If I ever get a UM2 I will sure make a good profile, but still it might not be much help since I would change it to 1.75mm XD

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Count on me as your robot hand to test anything you want on UM2+.

I use S3D daily, although at 20% of its power .

 

I would love to, but not sure if I can help UM2 users much since I use UMO+ with UM2 hotend. Don't know any good channels for S3D, maybe someone does? I did learn by reading every single button description and many many test.

If I ever get a UM2 I will sure make a good profile, but still it might not be much help since I would change it to 1.75mm XD

 

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Count on me as your robot hand to test anything you want on UM2+.

I use S3D daily, although at 20% of its power .

 

I would love to, but not sure if I can help UM2 users much since I use UMO+ with UM2 hotend. Don't know any good channels for S3D, maybe someone does? I did learn by reading every single button description and many many test.

If I ever get a UM2 I will sure make a good profile, but still it might not be much help since I would change it to 1.75mm XD

 

 

A great opportunity for cooperation! Looking at the number of views on the 3DPrintingNerd channel about the basics of working in Autodesk 360, you can not doubt the success.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Yeah not sure about my spanglish would work. But certainly there a lot of stuff I could show on s3d to optimize prints. Will think about it. Thanks guys!

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

As a research project I implemented this technique in Cura under the name "Ironing". It's going to be added to the 2.7 release.

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Posted (edited) · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

As a research project I implemented this technique in Cura under the name "Ironing". It's going to be added to the 2.7 release.

Cool, but "Neosanding" would have been better... :-|

Edited by Guest

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

I originally called it Sanding. But we felt that someone who didn't know about this thread in the forum would have no idea of what it actually does when you call it Neosanding.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Ty @ghostkeeper The use or not of the name is the least of the problems IMO

This will be a rant. But before I get into that, let’s put some things in perspective.

I made this slicer trick for the users, and the idea of it getting into a corporate product (Cura, even Open source is the product of a company). It took me exactly 3 days to make it, one the idea, second the planing and the third print test. It wasn’t hard at all, but I was really proud just because noone did this before. So I was quite happy about myself. Specially after seeing people using it even with the level of difficulty it has.

So, yesterday I find out that Cura Dev Team (Ultimaker product) has already developed this into a feature of the next Cura

http://www.3dprintingforum.us/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=705#p9870

And at first I think wow, this is cool. They took my idea and made it into an option for Cura. That will be so nice…?

Well, they don’t mention on the github anything about this post, nor that I had the idea.

Should I care? Well, I freaking do, but not for using or not my name, but the way this was done.

What SHOULD had happen and DID NOT

Email to me from Cura asking about how I feel about my idea getting into a program of a company (open source or not, this is a company product). At least just as a courtesy, as a pat on the back

Cura Dev Team could have had a series of emails exchanging ideas of how to make it. NO they found their own way. Clearly Cura is THEIR vision, not users. At least not non-programmers.

They post that they tried to use 3D sanding and failed. Ok, I could have help with that, I have evolved this idea into a Neosanding 2.0 that works on perimeters in between layers flattening a smaller amount of extrusion playing with the Gcode offset and the S3D order to do the slice. They could have benefit from talking to other non-programmers. They could have even chat here about their ideas, it could have a triumph to Open Community and exchanging ideas. But no.

So as far as I see it, they can call it Ironing, sanding, sandblasting or even the programmers name. Clearly isn’t just that my name is non existent (at this point) on THEIR development. What I see as a bigger issue is the ZERO exchange of ideas, they took, rebuild as they thing is right, and done. I don’t want to be a Moderator of a company that sees this forum as a Free Support Service. I think that the most lacking thing lately is the exchange of ideas, the people getting their minds sharing the thoughts and specially if this feedback is used for the Ultimaker products, I think the minimum should be to exchange ideas with the guy that had the idea. I been trying to share as much as possible on this forum, and I won’t stop since I like to help people when I can, but not as a Moderator since I don’t share the UM vision.

On the other side I’m happy that the users will be able to click-use this idea. That’s nice. But also there’s a nice way to do stuff and get people involved. And for me Ultimaker has failed.

So hopefully, next time someone has an original idea, UM chooses to talk with the guy that had it, instead of moving behind and doing it without him.

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Posted (edited) · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding
....Well, they don’t mention on the github anything about this post, nor that I had the idea.

....Email to me from Cura asking about how I feel about my idea getting into a program of a company (open source or not, this is a company product). At least just as a courtesy, as a pat on the back

Cura Dev Team could have had a series of emails exchanging ideas of how to make it. NO they found their own way. Clearly Cura is THEIR vision, not users. At least not non-programmers.

This gets to the problem that people had about Cura patenting their products. While I fully support patenting due to the need for proper protections, I cannot support taking someone else's idea without credit or communication.

It does get to the heart of the matter. And, I feel the 'rant' is justified as it does seem to violate the spirit of and need for the open source paradigm.

Edited by Guest

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Posted (edited) · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

@kmanstudios: I think nobody is talking about patenting something. Please don't create rumors here.

It seems some additional communications in an early stage of the feature implementation would have been at least appreciated.

In this sense:

CuraDevelopment.jpg.44d98d836344e70e59ef7b8c6b24a30f.jpg(from the Cura 2.5.0 startup dialog)

However, afaik @Neotko will be mentioned in the release notes as the source of the idea or similar. I'm also confident the persons involved in the issue will find a way to get along with it. ;)

edit: ... and with each other, please... :O

Edited by Guest
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Posted (edited) · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Well, they don’t mention on the github anything about this post, nor that I had the idea.

http://3dprintingforum.us/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=705&p=9890#p9885

I'm sorry? You didn't get mentioned? We haven't even written the frigging release notes yet. I know it's easy to say (after someone posts a rant) that we fully intented to mention that it was based on your idea, but we did. Who the hell do you think we are?

Everyone in the Cura team feels that doing this is important!

Email to me from Cura asking about how I feel about my idea getting into a program of a company (open source or not, this is a company product). At least just as a courtesy, as a pat on the back

You're getting the pat on the back. By being mentioned as the inspiration source of the idea.

Cura Dev Team could have had a series of emails exchanging ideas of how to make it. NO they found their own way. Clearly Cura is THEIR vision, not users. At least not non-programmers.

Are you now pissed that someone got inspired by what you did and did it slightly different? Yes, we could have asked you, but it didn't happen. This has nothing to do with vision or disrespecting you as a person or an engineer.

I feel your reaction is quite over exaggerated and also implies that some people who wanted to build something awesome get attacked and painted as the bad guys here. I don't think any of my colleagues had any intention of "stealing" your work. I personally find it offensive that you even suggest such a thing.  

The fact that you're even tweeting about this gives the vibe that you want to create some sort of riot here. The same thing you accuse us of ("you should have asked beforehand") is also valid here; You could have asked us why or how we did what we did before escalating this.

Edited by Guest
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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding
I cannot support taking someone else's idea without credit or communication.

I can't and wont either. But this is not the case in this situation.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Nice to hear from you. You have every right to think that way, same as do I.

Stealing not at all. I say collaboration, feedback, exchange of ideas.

Maybe I scaled it indeed. But I'm a bit max out of bull. This is just the tip of the iceberg but an important part of the process nonetheless.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

I cannot support taking someone else's idea without credit or communication.

I can't and wont either. But this is not the case in this situation.

Indeed that's not the case. I highly doubt anyone at UM would do that, they are very talented individuals and they have the open source on the core of their heart. My complain points at the lack of communication. Maybe I did push this too soon, but since the development is already there, they also could have push this much earlier. Isn't like Forum PM doesn't work.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

From my perspective, I hesitated but ultimately decided against necro-ing this year-old thread to ask about your experiences with the technique, or to indicate that I would be working on it for the next 2 weeks. That decision was based on that Neotko already posted his experiences, and that the technique was very clear-cut and the implementation in CuraEngine would need to be very different from what he did in his Slic3r script anyway. In the end, by request, I did necro the thread, but only after the implementation was completed.

I also implemented this slicer trick for the users. It was no request from higher up (the managers usually go for reliability and ease of use rather than print quality), but implemented during a period that we reserved for researching what we ourselves think would add to the quality of the application. I like making pretty prints rather than useful ones, and I thought (like Neotko) that for like-minded users this technique is very neat.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

From my perspective, I hesitated but ultimately decided against necro-ing this year-old thread to ask about your experiences with the technique, or to indicate that I would be working on it for the next 2 weeks. That decision was based on that Neotko already posted his experiences, and that the technique was very clear-cut and the implementation in CuraEngine would need to be very different from what he did in his Slic3r script anyway. In the end, by request, I did necro the thread, but only after the implementation was completed.

I also implemented this slicer trick for the users. It was no request from higher up (the managers usually go for reliability and ease of use rather than print quality), but implemented during a period that we reserved for researching what we ourselves think would add to the quality of the application. I like making pretty prints rather than useful ones, and I thought (like Neotko) that for like-minded users this technique is very neat.

I do think indeed is cool. And like I said I'm really happy for this complex thing to do on S3D that will be easy, and most probably better, on Cura.

Maybe I shouldn't have focus my rant so much over Cura Dev Team, but I'm only human. Anyhow as a general point of view I think is interesting that the feedback should occur, and the posts, old or new, are there to use them if one wants. We are here every day and for me the most interesting part is the sharing of ideas and improvement. Even when I'm a pain in the ass over and over when I say that I preffer S3D, I value all the work Cura has done while isn't my favorite program yet, I might well be anytime soon.

Anyhow my point stands, the Moderator part, I don't see any use of me being a moderator of a UM forum for reasons. Let's leave it at that. That doesn't mean that I will stop sharing ideas, that's the thing that I enjoy the most.

About Neosanding 2.0 (I will keep calling it like that :p ) I will try to make a post about how to use some tricks to flatten the slopes between layers to remove the visual effect and make them look like higher res without much print time increased.

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Posted (edited) · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

I believe that I have been misunderstood on several replies that I have been quoted at.

1. I mentioned the patent thing because of a different thread in which people went immediately to the 'fear of the man' taking advantage of everybody. I supported that stance on protecting the company's innovations completely.

2. The fact that we now have one person who originated an idea and the UM team upset revolves around one major issue: Lack of communication. It is simple. Team UM could have contacted Neotko at the outset and all would have been a complete non-issue.

3. "Who the hell do you think we are?" was a reply. Well, I am hoping you are all completely honorable guys that just made a mistake in lack of communication. But you really cannot get riled when you state that release notes are not written, but the idea is announced without attribution.

It is a touchy subject. So far all I see is a simple miscommunication. But it should also remind us all how easy it is to not understand a situation. And, if Neotko, or anybody else for that matter, has had experiences such as myself that has included personal work appropriated or outright plagiarized, then, yeah, it can be a bit personal and cause hurt feelings on both sides.

I may have butted into something that I do not really have a right to, but, just like the patenting thread, I do feel strongly about corporate rights and personal rights. Especially in this day and age where ethics seem to be eroding or just trampled everywhere.

Edited by Guest
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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Btw On Cura 2.7beta this is available and Cura devs called it ‘ironing’

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

neotko,

 

Kudos to you for developing your neosanding techniques and processes for improving 3d print surfaces!  It's not often a game changer is invented!!!

 

You mention you print a fair amount of small text.  Have you tried printing the text directly against the print surface with much success?  I've been practicing this with mixed results.  Sometimes I pull off a beautiful clean print with shiny text and sometimes I get stringing or a small (deposited) blob in the space between the letters.  It seems these imperfections occur when traveling from one letter to the next.

 

I can print string free and blob free on the surface of the part, but for some reason printing against the build plate presents these artifacts.

 

My bed is level to within 0.1 mm across the glass and I'm using a 25 point auto bed leveling to ensure my nozzle knows where the surface is.  It just seems that printing letters (12.7 mm or smaller) against the print surface presents me with a different dynamic than printing letters on top of the part.

 

Any suggestions?

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Posted (edited) · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding
7 hours ago, inventabuild said:

neotko,

 

Kudos to you for developing your neosanding techniques and processes for improving 3d print surfaces!  It's not often a game changer is invented!!!

 

You mention you print a fair amount of small text.  Have you tried printing the text directly against the print surface with much success?  I've been practicing this with mixed results.  Sometimes I pull off a beautiful clean print with shiny text and sometimes I get stringing or a small (deposited) blob in the space between the letters.  It seems these imperfections occur when traveling from one letter to the next.

 

I can print string free and blob free on the surface of the part, but for some reason printing against the build plate presents these artifacts.

 

My bed is level to within 0.1 mm across the glass and I'm using a 25 point auto bed leveling to ensure my nozzle knows where the surface is.  It just seems that printing letters (12.7 mm or smaller) against the print surface presents me with a different dynamic than printing letters on top of the part.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

For fonts 12mm seems big enough to handle it. For that I would (on s3d) make the process use no perimeters and increase the infill overlap to 90% so the travel path of the sanding process goes as smooth as possible, also I would set avoid crossing distances to maximum.

 

The small blops can be pressure remaining on the nozzle, you could cut down the extrusion to a minimum while doing the sanding so the process focuses on scratching the layer lines without filling the microgaps. 

 

Probably using neosanding 2.0 would work better for fonts, but it has a few drawbacks like no matte finish unless you play with speed/temp. 

 

 

Edited by neotko
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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Testing the first step for a better neosanding

 

 

What’s new?

 

Process layer with a 1-2mm horizontal expansion so the effect doesn’t suffer on small areas where a normal sanding would have way too much travel jumps.

 

Changed the Z offset of the Sanding layer to -0.03 / -0.05 to actually ‘dig’ into the printed part and really sand / scratch. This isn’t Ironing but actually it does sand the surface.

 

Extrusion must be removed completely or the nozzle drips when doing the sanding on areas where nothing is printed. I retract 4mm just before moving the Z. Ofc I use directdrive so the length will change for others.

 

First tests at 0.1 nozzle size (for super smooth finish) show great promise. 

 

All done ofc in S3D, and the thing that I can’t do on s3d to improve this:

 

- Force a one single pass (without travel hops). I hotfix this by increasing the expansion or making a custom shape of the area to sand.

 

 

The results on Greentec are incredible. The surface looks almost without any extrusion and saves me a good 5minutes post process for each print.

 

The speed should be pretty fast or overheat occurs. I use 100mm/s

 

Also important point. I use Ruby nozzle. It’s so hard that it doesn’t suffer from scratching/sanding the surface but a brass or common nozzle might need slower speeds with extra fan to avoid extra dripping or damaging the print. 

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Remember if you are interested on following my mods or tricks to follow on twitter since I don’t check this forum much lately. 

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding

Cura's implementation actually also uses a -0.01mm (10 micron) z-offset, which is hardcoded into the engine right now. I intended to test that with -0.02mm but never got around to it.

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding
1 hour ago, ghostkeeper said:

Cura's implementation actually also uses a -0.01mm (10 micron) z-offset, which is hardcoded into the engine right now. I intended to test that with -0.02mm but never got around to it.

 

The issue to do this on cura is that since it goes all the way or nothing (no layer selection) it would need that to use horizontal expansion (process without perimeters and only the sanding effect) to improve. The -0.01 indeed sure helps, but my tests show 0.03 as a safe and a -0.05 looks very amazing but needs one path direction (without the sanding changing the direction like happes normally on any print)

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Posted · Neosanding - Automatic Layer Sanding
On 1/15/2018 at 7:44 AM, neotko said:

 

..."First tests at 0.1 nozzle size (for super smooth finish) show great promise."...

 

Nice work! Are you actually

 

1. using a 0.1 mm nozzle?

2. telling S3D the nozzle is 0.1mm and letting it auto pick the extrusion width?

3. using a 0.4 mm nozzle and setting the manual extrusion width to 0.1 mm?

 

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