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ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

you can NOT deny they were all caught up in the dual extruder for the 2+. Sure I could try to search the forums for exactly what I read a LONG time ago but why waste my time? Doesn't look like they are going to do anything about it anyway.

I know for a fact that there has never been such plans from Ultimaker and i have never seen anything like the things you are talking about at the forum. If you look at the back of your UM2+ you will realise that the mounting hole for the 2nd extruder that were on the UM2 is removed at the UM2+, also the 2nd hole in the top plastic part was removed on the UM2+, so it is pretty easy to see the evidence that the plans they had for Dual extrusion on the UM2 was abandoned before the UM2+ went into production.

Also, a LONG time ago? The UM2+ was released in January 2016... if it was any longer ago than that, it was not about the + model. (and if we are talking about the time before January 2015 and the announcement i linked in my post, then yes there were a lot of discussion about a dual extrusion upgrade for the original UM2, but never for the + model wich were released much later)

Well I'm glad YOU knew FOR A FACT that there was no plans for it. The rest of us didn't have that insight. And while I'm sure you knew EXACTLY what to look for on the back of your Ultimaker to be SURE they had abandoned the dual extruder idea, the rest of us didn't know.

As you are a much longer user of the Ultimaker and this forum than I, the term LONG time ago seems unlikely. I agree. It was not that long ago for you. But it WAS when I was looking about the Ultimaker 2 Extended plus and not the Ultimaker Original.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

And then comes the realization that I will never need half of those features.

You may not NEED all of those but the combination of all the features should make it a lot more reliable and easier to use.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Are common filament spools compatible with UM3?

Is the spool tag mandatory?

Besides this, i understand UM3 is not intended to print filaments that require frequent nozzle replacements or have special needs, like bronze, carbon,etc...

Does that mean that people buying the UM3 will keep the UM2 just to perform the dirty work?.

You guys who already own the UM3, would recommend to keep the 'old' UM2 ?.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

And then comes the realization that I will never need half of those features.

You may not NEED all of those but the combination of all the features should make it a lot more reliable and easier to use.

Yes, the entire printer is more automated and far more reliable, but while the reliability is a big bonus, I don't think I need the automation......

I don't know about you, but I actually like fixing and maintaining my printer. I don't have a pet, so my UMO+ takes on the role of one :)

And plus, if you take price into consideration, it is a lot cheaper to hack a UMO+ or get a Prusa i3 instead of a UM3. Big companies that just need a reliable, hassle-freee workhorse might like the UM3, but personally, I don't see why I would need to get something that expensive.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Yes you are correct and that's why Ultimaker have multiple printers on offer for different price points and requirements.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Yeah......

I just kind of wish that they would come out with a newer, more up-to-date version of the UMO+.

But there is, of course, the longer but more interesting route of starting a massive hacking project.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Are common filament spools compatible with UM3?

Is the spool tag mandatory?

Besides this, i understand UM3 is not intended to print filaments that require frequent nozzle replacements or have special needs, like bronze, carbon,etc...

Does that mean that people buying the UM3 will keep the UM2 just to perform the dirty work?.

You guys who already own the UM3, would recommend to keep the 'old' UM2 ?.

Material system is just as open as with the UM2+, so its easy to select your material profile in the UM3 and Cura. The spools tags just make the communication towards the whole infrastructure automatic and saves you the knowhow about materials and profiles, as this is done by Ultimaker.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Are common filament spools compatible with UM3?

Is the spool tag mandatory?

Besides this, i understand UM3 is not intended to print filaments that require frequent nozzle replacements or have special needs, like bronze, carbon,etc...

Does that mean that people buying the UM3 will keep the UM2 just to perform the dirty work?.

You guys who already own the UM3, would recommend to keep the 'old' UM2 ?.

You can use any material brand on the UM3, the NFC tag is not required. You have to do a manual material selection on the printer. This selection does not determine the print temperature as with the UM2(+). It determines the material loading temperature, so just select something reasonable.

To demonstrate the open material design, I uploaded the Swiss Ultibot print, made with Diamond Age PLA which was not even on spools.

In my very personal opinion, having open hardware and software would also mean to me opening the NFC design and format to anyone. I think, Ultimaker would still make good money with their cores when this design is open too as many company need the reliability and the optimal printing parameters for Ultimaker material for their 24/7 applications. We will know in six months how Ultimaker decided. But believe me, they take the open source thing very serious; their company is built on that.

To answer the last question: I'm even keeping my old UMO! The UM2 is still a very good printer. If an UM2 does still have the old all-in-one-block, I would recommend to replace it with an Olsson Block. Or upgrade it to an UM2+ with the Extrusion upgrade kit (yes, I still consider those good investments in a nice machine). The UM2 is still my work horse; most prints do not need dual extrusion.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Sorry that I disturb the discussion of the descisionmaking of the ultimaker company, but can someone just answer that question?

 

Do the cores need to wipe before nozzle change? Or is the low/high temperature reached fast enough?

 

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Sorry that I disturb the discussion of the descisionmaking of the ultimaker company, but can someone just answer that question?

 

Do the cores need to wipe before nozzle change? Or is the low/high temperature reached fast enough?

 

 

You can choose to use a wipe tower in Cura or not to use it.

I tried both and it works quite nicely, some had problems with PVA/PLA towers that get knocked down but for me it just works.

You can also not use a wipe tower if you manage to control oozing, which can be done by reducing the temperature and having a good retraction setting (default settings work well for PLA), for PVA i noticed that increasing the retraction length to 3mm or more had a good effect.

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I can't wait to see a NFC chip dongle you can program yourself, and attach to your own spools.

then you can dial in the perfect setup for non UM materials

And I like to know, when they printed with PVA support, how long it took to clean off with water.

it could increase finishing a print significantly.

Edited by Guest

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

They don't wipe but cool down and heatup is quite fast and the timing is controlled by Cura. That means the new nozzle should reach extrusion temp exactly when it's going to be activated. I did most of the prints on the UM3 without a prime tower or ooze shield because I simply don't like that stuff. However for being on the safe side UM recommends a prime tower.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I can't wait to see a NFC chip dongle you can program yourself, and attach to your own spools.

then you can dial in the perfect setup for non UM materials

And I like to know, when they printed with PVA support, how long it took to clean off with water.

it could increase finishing a print significantly.

 

PVA dissolves in water quite fast.

In cold water it takes i would say around 12h

Add some heat and some movement and that time goes down a lot (less than 2 hours)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

The UM2 is still my work horse; most prints do not need dual extrusion.

 

Agree - even with my UMO dual extrusion, 99% of my prints don´t need a different support material or a second print material. The 1% done with PVA or PolySupport is a bit of work, but nevertheless, it´s still a reliable machine behind.

And I guess, most UM2 or UM2+ users will feel the same...

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Let me comment on the "But but but, dual extrusion of the UM2 as promised!"

Yes, we sort of did. We wanted to. We REALLY REALLY did. The Ultimaker 3 is a direct result of this. We started on UM2 dual extrusion when the UM2 was launched. We only had a small team back then. And we worked on it, and we learned more and more. Then we discovered that it would take more them to make dual extrusion work reliably then we wanted. And thus we took some time of the project to make the 2go and extended. To "win time".

Fast forward a bit, and we put more time in dual extrusion. Slowly discovering that it's not feasible for the UM2 in a reliable way. At the same time, we did have this new nice feeder that we wanted to put in this upgrade. So... that became the UM2+.

Continuing development, we discovered we needed to lift the nozzle for the best reliable result. Producing 1 printer with the nozzles on the same height is possible. Producing 10000 printers with the nozzles on the same height was not.

And that's when we made the choice not to produce it as an upgrade anymore, and the UM2 dual became the UM3. Not because we wanted. Not because of money. But because we didn't want to push out an inferior product.

The UM3, started out as the project "UM2.1".

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I think that is the definition of being locked in for nozzles...

 

Not really. The PrintCore actually has a memory chip, which also saves the last material used. We haven't implemented the feature yet, but we can figure out what purging steps to take when switching between say ABS and PLA.

I don't see a real need to buy multiple build-cores for all your materials.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

how did you guys get the extruders not to drip? I know you're raising the unused one, but how do you stop the flow? In my case even retraction won't help much here. Thanks!

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Posted (edited) · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

I can't wait to see a NFC chip dongle you can program yourself, and attach to your own spools.

then you can dial in the perfect setup for non UM materials

And I like to know, when they printed with PVA support, how long it took to clean off with water.

it could increase finishing a print significantly.

 

It depends a lot how easy water access to the pva (the time). They recommend water not higher than 35C for pla etcetc. But men yesterday on the presentation in Madrid I just asked them to use hot water (probably around 40-50C). And using the raft we sticket it to the bottom of the glass tank. It was the spinning cool thing they show on the videos, by the time the pva had released from most areas the water was already cooldown. So there's a lot of factors to speed it up. The problem using pla/pva with water at more than 35C is if the water is moving the orint can hit the tank of water and deform. So if you can keep it stuck to the bottom while first big chink of pva is around it, then you gain a lot of time. Overall it was 1h to get all support from the spinning thing, but it really depends on how much pva is there. For example if you use a raft it helps to remove it before so the water can get inside.

Btw was 1h but there was a bit of pva left that could have enjoy a bit extra brush or water time. But it was spinning :)

Edited by Guest

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

so i'll reply as well..

the whole UM2 and dual extrusion discussion is pretty much dead. yes it was promised for the UM2, no it was never promised for the UM2+ and if you were expecting it for the UM2+ that is not something Ultimaker had anything to do with. sorry if that sounds harsh, but they have been very clear since the beginning of the UM2+ that that device would not do dual extrusion. if you were expecting it that;s not something you can blame on them..

yes it was promised for the UM2 but they made a very good point about why it couldn't be done. and if you look critically at the UM3 (which i've been testing for the past few weeks) it is very obvious why it could not be done this way for the UM2.

that being said, there's also the point of the UM2+ versus the UM3. the UM2+ is the improved version of the UM2. a lot of community feedback and testing went into that. the UM3 has, in my opinion, nothing to do with the UM2(+). it has a very different target audience, and a very different use case. the fact that some people are already saying they now need to replace all of their specialized nozzles with cores and how that is super expensive quite frankly just don't get it.

this machine is not meant to be tinkered with all the time. this machine is a workhorse. you buy it because you need a lot of very reliable prints. done. if something's clogged or broken, you want to replace it on the spot with minimal downtime. if you put material in it, it needs to be back up and running ASAP.

if you read the description of the UM3 carefully, you can see their target audience is universities, prosumers, prototyping environments. it's simply not the tinkerers.. if you want a lot of swappable nozzles, different feeders, and your own way of doing things, you need an UM2+.

if you run them 24/7 and need a very reliable consistent printing experience, you need an UM3. they are simply very different machines.

I run one of the, if not the largest 3d hubs of the benelux. i run 4 UM2+ printers 24/7 and I could not be more excited for the UM3. your comparison for 7 euros for a nozzle versus 100 euros is simply wrong. i've calculated maintenance cost for my UM2+ printers at around 125 euros per 500 hours, and I expect the print cores to last for about the same time. once the performance starts dropping, i'll throw out the core and get a new one. no more taking the head apart, risking damaging any of the axes, realigning the build plate etc. etc. you have to compare apples to apples.. if i run abbrasive filament through the head, i think i run a greater risk of damaging the feeder then the nozzle to be honest. but even if i damage the nozzle, I'll just charge more for abbrasive filament. it's just a business calculation. I can actually see my prices dropping with the UM3 instead of going up..

that being said, if I'm focussed on building great models, like valcrow or any of the other great artists that we have on this forum, the UM3 would not interest me at all since it lacks the flexibility I would need. I would love the Um2+ in that case..

anyway, that's my rant.. you gotta put things into perspective. the UM3 is not a successor to the Um2+. it's a new device for a new market. a market currently dominated by the 10K+ printers.. and I think the UM3 can easily hold it;'s own.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Like what I am hearing! Wish cores with other nozzle sizes were already available and included a 250 micron nozzle size. Am #1 in the queue in GB for my new printer and am trading in one of my 2+s to make room. :-)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Hi there,

I am desperate to be able to print with support material. Thinking of selling my UM2+ to buy a UM3.

What is a reasonable price for a UM2+ purchased in March, having some 500h print time?

Is there a working market for used 3D printers? To my surprise there are not too many printers on eBay.

Thanks,

Conny

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

That's because used Ultimakers are not for sale a long time :)

I would target a price between 1800 and 2000€ for a used UM2+ assuming it's in a good state (which it probably is having only 500 hours)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

Hi there,

I am desperate to be able to print with support material. Thinking of selling my UM2+ to buy a UM3.

What is a reasonable price for a UM2+ purchased in March, having some 500h print time?

Is there a working market for used 3D printers? To my surprise there are not too many printers on eBay.

Thanks,

Conny

 

I won't stop you from selling your Ultimaker, but I honestly think that it's not worth it......

Most prints don't have the complexity at which soluble supports is necessary, and the 1k jump in the price is rather large......

It really depends on what you're using your Ultimaker for. If it's just as a tool you use at home, then I would probably stick with the UM2+ and possibly hack it a bit to get some newer features, but if you're running a company or printing hub with it, the UM3 is a great choice because of the automation and reliability.

Again, your choice, but I just feel bad for the Ultimaker that you're going to sell.

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

That's because used Ultimakers are not for sale a long time :)

I would target a price between 1800 and 2000€ for a used UM2+ assuming it's in a good state (which it probably is having only 500 hours)

 

Makes sense. I thought of some 1500-1750. Bought it for just 2200, so 2000 are a bit high probably :-)

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Posted · ULTIMAKER 3 (DUAL EXTRUSION?)

 

That's because used Ultimakers are not for sale a long time :)

I would target a price between 1800 and 2000€ for a used UM2+ assuming it's in a good state (which it probably is having only 500 hours)

 

Makes sense. I thought of some 1500-1750. Bought it for just 2200, so 2000 are a bit high probably :-)

 

You never know :)

If your Ultimaker is in good condition, people might actually take 2k, and you'll be spending less on a UM3! Who knows how desperate people are to get cheaper-than-usual printer.

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