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limburgmetaal

PVA not sticking

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good morning all

anybody got any advise on following;

working on the 1st trials and trying to get to understand all settings.

PVA on 220°, Bed on 80°, glas plate clean and spraid with 3dlac

Problem the 1st bid of the print is not sticking to the bed

any sugestions are welcom.

thanks

20161121_093602.thumb.jpg.7e7bb6e6fbf0ae89ea02060192da87c7.jpg

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ABS and PVA are not an ideal combination, if you are looking for strength I could highly recommend to use Nylon and PVA.

It doesn't because of the ABS behaves very different from for example PLA and Nylon, it forms no bond with PVA, so it kinda just lies on top of it.

With PLA and Nylon there is a connection between the two materials which makes it stick.

You could very well use ABS/ABS if you are making a dual color print. But for support material it is not ideal.

Good luck!

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yeah. PVA and ABS is not going to work..

not only don't they really stick to eachother, but ABS needs minimal fan, PVA a lot.. ABS needs a very strong adhesion to not warp..

PVA+ Nylon or PVA + PLA will work. if it needs to be strong, use PVA + Nylon..

what are you trying to print? does it require ABS?

ABS + PVA should simply not be done.

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Hi Limburgmetaal, thank you for reply.

Looking for a machine that can use PVA, you have made the right choice!

PVA is not as an easy or straightforward material as for example, PLA.

With some proper guidelines I am pretty sure you will be able to avoid the warping too. You are lucky @Korneel is here as well, as he already is growing to become an Ultimaker 3 expert ;) (owning.. 3?)

@limburgmetaal, could you guide us through your workflow?

How do you level your bed? Do you do it manually or with assistive leveling?

Have you tried both?

And do you use an adhesive?

Secondly, what settings do you use for PVA?

Where is your Ultimaker 3 located? Ambient temperature could be of influence if for example, there is a big draft or if it is in a very cold room.

Thanks!

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hi Sander,

Bed leveling done through the setup with the card

As well as XY setting calibrated etc

PVA setting was mentioned, 220° and 80 on the bed.

I will try tomorrow the PLA/PVA as it looks that ABS/PVA is a non-starter

the printer is standing in a normal office, we have put a cloth over the top with the last two attempt to eliminate the draft and loss of temp.

Glue, we used the 3dlac spray

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@SandervG : I'm at 5 currently ;)

yeah, ABS and PVA is a no go for me..

@limburgmetaal , we discussed this over PM :) but perhaps for public consumption;

1)stick with Ultimaker Original FIlaments for this. I did try the PLA from ICe Filaments and that worked well. the combination PVA/PLA with other brands, such as PLA-PHA from Colorfabb did not work with PVA. so i would recommend sticking with original Ultimaker PVA + PLA for the best results.

I just don;'t see PVA + ABS working. the temperature difference is massive... the stickyness is an issue with PVA.. yeah, just don't see that working too well..

cloth over the top should not be necessary.. iw ould recommend trying with PLA and PVA..

ABS is one opf the hardest materials to print with. only use it if really needed. in most cases PLA is better, or Nylon when high strength is needed..

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I will try tomorrow the PLA/PVA as it looks that ABS/PVA is a non-starter

 

ABS/PVA is generally accepted to be a total no-go combination.

Another option if you really want to print ABS might be using ABS with Polymaker PolySupport or ABS with HIPS support.

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Just follow the Cura 2.3.1 recomendations for Ultimaker 3 in this PLA/PVA settings and remember to change the core to BB in position 2.

normal: 200º PLA 220º PVA, bed 60º

One of the advantages of 3 machines is the presettings.

Regards

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Unfortunately, ABS and PVA is not a good combination, due to insufficient adhesion and a difference in printing temperature.

ABS with HIPS does print well, however HIPS needs to be dissolved in D-limonene, which is not a nice solvent to handle. More importantly, after dissolving the ABS part also gets partly affected and decreases in mechanical strength. Therefore this is not a suggested combination.

PVA is working great in combination with PLA and with Nylon and I would suggest to try more with that at the moment.

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Important to note is that HIPS does not dissolve in water but you need some other liquid (D-Limonene) which you also can not (If I am not mistaken) just dispose down the drain.

 

Question what core do you use if you use HIPS...the AA or BB core?

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20161122_104738.thumb.jpg.64086d7d256c27f15364450eab3a7efc.jpg

PLA+PVA works great!

thanks for the advise

the PLA extruder has a small dribble, but that might be the filament (innofil3d)

 

awesome!

so far, I've had the best results with A grade filament, such as Ultimaker filament, but also great experiences with ICE filament and ofcourse Colorfabb

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AA would be the better choice, but you must realize HIPS is not a material that we recommend to use.

First of all it is not supported, but it can also send out nasty fumes (like ABS) and the solvent you need for it is (reportedly) toxic. D'limonine cannot be disposed on the sink and could affect negatively the mechanical strength of the build material that go to the solvent together with the HIPS (at least that happens with UM ABS). (Checked it with our material engineers).

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I've been thinking more and more about purchasing an U3 Extended, curious about water-soluble support.  I just found out today via this forum that PVA & ABS isn't going to work and HIPS is a bit of a toxic mess.  This bummed me out, so I started looking for other options...

Has anyone gotten a spool of the new Airwolf HydroFill water-soluble support material?  Forum search returned no hits on 'hydrofill' or 'hydro fill'.  They claim it works in any FFF printer and works well with ABS.  Also claims, "dissolves in clean water without the use of any caustic chemicals, detergents, or solvents and without the use of special equipment like ultrasonic or heated baths. HydroFill is a universal, green chemistry solution.”  

Is a bit more expensive than Ultimaker's PVA spool @ $98 for 1lb (roughly $0.22 per gram), but if it works well with ABS, is non-toxic and dissolves just like PVA, it might be worth it?

Intro article from Airwolf:  https://airwolf3d.com/2017/01/05/hydrofill-water-soluble-support/

Airwolf HyroFill product purchase page:  https://airwolf3d.com/shop/water-soluble-support-3d-print/

Edited by Guest

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Are you solely and exclusively tied to ABS or can you also use other materials like Nylon, CPE or maybe even PLA? Depending on what characteristics you need of ABS (strength, heat resistant), perhaps there are other alternatives that do work with PVA.

ABS had the advantage that it was around when 3D printing took off, so it made quite a name for itself in the scene, but by now there are a lot of very interesting alternatives (which work better!)

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Hey, SandervG,

I saw all the deflections to other materials in multiple posts :) I have printed things in various PLAs and Nylons and enjoy the materials. Overall, I just like the way my ABS prints have turned out better. To combat warping, I made a plexiglass cover and door for my U2 for a heated enclosure. I use drops of acetone on the glass, smeared around with an ABS "puck" for perfect adhesion that easily pops off the glass when cooled. After printing, I like to suspend some of my ABS parts in a glass mason jar above boiling acetone for a steamy, shiny finish.

I have had a challenging time getting PLA to adhere to the plate (hairspray sometimes doesn't work and blue tape can work too good, leaving blue fuzz on the bottom of my print), post processing to get a shiny surface is "meh" and the final part feels different from ABS in weight, feel, brittleness and flexibility. Heat resistance isn't as big a deal for me, but knowing a part "can" withstand higher temps is a plus.

I'm not completely put off by the PVA/ABS incompatibility. Was just wondering if anyone has tried the new HydraFill with ABS and if it works or not? Seems like a lot of people want water-soluble support with ABS.

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I have made tiny little 'anchors' that are to hold the extreme ends down (Front of wrench and back of wrench in your case) and let the PVA be a simple support for long bridges. They are just boxes with a point on the end to minimize adhesion (easy to break off) while allowing for the anchor to sit firmly on the glass.

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