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Karel1986

ABS wont stick on UM3

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Hi,

I bought an UM3 extended for the company I work at.

I have Innofill ABS and Primavalue ABS (both black)

At first my primavalue ABS wouldn't stick at all. (gonna try the innofil some other day)

After some changes, adviced by the filament supplier 3dninja.nl, the ABS is now sticking with a raft and higher temperature.

Nozzle: 240C

Buildplate: 95C (+ glue that came with the UM3 extended)

Fan 5%

Speed 50mm/s

raft

After an hour.... the corners delaminated and after a few more layers the nozzle knocked the print to the side.

So my questions:

What settings will help to keep the print stay on during the whole print (about 1 day)

There is no door or top on the UM3, could this be the problem?

I've bought a buildTAK and some kapton tape, but are they really necessary?

Thank you everyone in advance,

Karel

Atelier 49

Edited by Guest

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I love glass. I'd stick with glass. I used to use kapton before glass. ABS is a bit trickier than PLA but you will eventually be an expert if you keep it up. You fixed 2 of the issues - you raised the build plate temp (but you should go to 100C) and you added some glue. But probably too much glue. The 3rd issue is the most commonly ignored - you need the head closer to the glass. For now simply turn the 3 screws about 1/3 turn CCW to move the glass .166mm closer to the nozzle and try again. But there are subtleties to these 3 tricks (heat/squish/glue) and it can help to spend the whole 15 minutes watching this video:

 

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ABS is kinda rough. I would recommend using Ultimaker ABS (it doesn't warp and sticks onto glass) You need a small layer of glue not to help it stick, but to help it UN-STICK so it doesn't chip your glass plate upon removal of your part.

Most other ABS I've tested have similar results as you describe. It works up till a certain point and then warps away if the part is of any decent size. Only a full enclosure will help with this type of ABS or you'll have to resort to kapton + abs slurry and that's kinda messy and not fun. Make sure your fans are off.

Ultimaker ABS for some reason sticks really well and doesn't warp that much in an open environment. Probably some voodoo magic in it.

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I love glass.  I'd stick with glass.  I used to use kapton bef-----------

 

Thank you @gr5 very informational video on different techniques.

I see now I definitely put on to much glue on the glass plate.

Regarding the leveling. I auto level before a new ABS print and I've tried manual leveling (with instructions of Ultimaker).

Does the auto level function in UM3 gets the nozzle close enough to the buildplate in your opinion for the first layer?

I will try 100C build plate today and see what happens.

PS: can you use Kapton tape right away after applying?

PS2: so a brim is good enough in comparison to a raft?

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Good questions! I definitely don't autolevel. Here is the engineering idea behind autoleveling:

If bottom layer is .3mm then the nozzle should be .3mm from the glass. Auto level such that z=0 is touching the glass.

The problem with that concept is that parts are dimensionally perfect and usually stick "okay" but "okay" means certain part shapes will always pop off the glass and most part shapes will pop off too early maybe 10% of the time. 10% is too much.

kapton tape

Only works with heat. I used it many years ago with my first home built heated bed. It worked fine with no treatment with PLA but since then I've heard it's best to clean it with alcohol also. Just like blue tape. I never personally tried it with ABs.

brim versus raft

Brim makes parts stick like hell. Raft allows flexure if parts are shrinking. They are totally different ways to approach the problem. Brim is keeping any air from getting under the corner of a part and also it spreads the forces around a curved edge instead of having all the force on a point if your parts has corners. Raft is purposely sparse and allows some flexure of the raft itself such that the part can shrink and flex slightly but still stay stuck to the glass. Raft causes very ugly bottom surfaces so it's not recommended unless you are printing something really difficult like PEEK with an all metal hot end at 360C. (360, not 260!)

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One more thing! Some recent glass plates from UM are not very flat. Check the flatness of your glass with a straight edge. If the back corners are low you can probably just bend up the aluminum base a bit to compensate (that's what I did) but if that's not enough then you might need a new glass plate. So even if you get the 3 leveling points perfect there may be other areas of the glass that are too low.

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The glass plate on a 4000 euro machine might not be flat!? Going to check it after my ABS print is done.

I've applied a better glue layer according to your youtube video

changed the build plate temp to 100C

covered the front and top a bit

fan off instead of 5%

So far it has been running for 2,5 hours and just 19,5 hours to go.

So far so good.

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But did you turn the 3 screws 1/3 turn CCW?  That's the most important part.  You can do it right after autocal if you want while it's printing the first layer.

 

The first 8 hours went really good until I found a missprint this morning.

It seems the product wont attache good enough to the support.

The product warps right of the support. (just like it did on the glass build plate)

So it is brim,support,print,support and then the print on top of that starts to delaminate half way.

I did turn the screws about 1/3 CCW during brim printing.

I saw an option that says: Support Z distance 0,2mm Support top distance 0,2mm and Support bottom distance 0,1mm.

Is this enough, to much or is this a good setting?

What are your thoughts?

PS: man that solid infill ABS is tough! :)

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Oh - ABS! Right. With ABS you don't want too much fan because then you have bad layer adhesion and it can warp apart. Even if it doesn't warp apart you might have very weak parts. Why are you using ABS? it's not as strong as PLA. Well - it can be almost as strong but only if you get really good at it.

So the problem with layer adhesion is that the current layer is not fully melting the layer below. The solution for better layer adhesion with ABS is heat. Limit the fan. 3% on UM3, 30% on UM2. Also enclose the printer so the blowing air is warmer. If you just put a cardboard box on top and cover the front with saran wrap it will help quite a bit. Also you want the nozzle temp higher. But I found that I can ruin a print with a nozzle temp as low as 246 if I don't keep the filament flowing (ABS cooks into "gum" if left too long above 200C - higher temps are worse). So I usually print at 240C or 245C if it's printing very fast (> 4mm^3/sec).

Some people think .1mm helps with layer adhesion. I disagree - I think .2mm helps. I'm not certain which is better for layer adhesion. But definitely higher temps help.

Can you show a photo of your print? I don't understand about the brim,support,print,support.

Another thing - 100% infill is usually a bad idea. It usually doesn't add any strength (the strength is usually from the walls - like bones) and if you have slight over extrusion it causes other problems as well (no place for the extra filament).

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>Can you show a photo of your print? I don't understand about the brim,support,print,support.

Maybe you should design your own supports with brim around the base of the supports. Just guessing what your print looks like (assuming it's shaped like a lumpy potato).

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Hi gr5,

In the meantime I've changed the Z support distance from 0,2 to 0,1mm and it does tend to stick better.

The image below is what I meant with: brim, support, print, support, print

5a3326e4015f0_supportprintproblem.thumb.png.7e6abcb435660ceab731863564f58eaf.png[/media]

5a3326e4015f0_supportprintproblem.thumb.png.7e6abcb435660ceab731863564f58eaf.png

Edited by Guest

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regarding your layer cake of abs-support-abs-support-brim:

Is the support material also ABS? If it is PVA (I'm not sure that PVA/ABS is supported as I don't think they stick to each other?) then this is an example where you want "horizontal expansion" for the PVA.

If the support material is instead ABS (as I suspect) then I can see where you might have warping issues on the left side of the part - brim won't help you there of course. Maybe do "grid" support instead of "lines".

Why can't you use PLA for this part? PLA with PVA would be great for this part.

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It's all ABS.

It need more strength as it is part of a stroller hinge.

Thank you for your suggestion with the grid option. Going to try it later on.

I've managed 2 good ABS prints now (other parts) and I'm getting there:)

Thank you so much for your time and help regarding this issue.

Karel.

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Lots of people will tell you that ABS is stronger than PLA. It's not true. It used to be that typical PLA filament was less flexible than ABS which basically makes it more brittle and basically weaker (it's more complicated but I"m giving you the simple explanation). Now all the modern formulations of PLA are just as flexible as ABS so just as strong.

If anything ABS tends to be weaker. Much weaker. Because of the layer bonding issue. If you print ABS like you print PLA (fans 100%, air temperature < 25C, 230-250C) then you will not notice normally but you will have a huge "grain effect" where ABS breaks along the grain (PLA doesn't have this problem). So until you are an expert with ABS I think you will find it is much weaker.

On the other hand, strollers are often left in cars in a parking lot during the day. This temperature (60C - enough to kill a human easily) is also hot enough to soften and ruin PLA parts. ABS can take 100C. Your car interior will never get that hot (if it does all the ABS parts will melt in your dashboard).

If you find that PLA or ABS are not strong enough then Nylon is a good option. It's even harder to print than ABS but so so strong due to it's flexibility. You can bend that nylon hinge in half and drive a car over it and it will be fine.

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Nylon from Ultimaker prints *very good* with the Cura printing profiles. It has none of the ABS problems described here.

And nylon is one of the materials compatible with PVA, which means removing the support is a matter of putting it in a bucket of water.

Nylon is tough, but not stiff. It is kind of flexible. So if your part is holding a wheel or something, it might not be stiff enough.

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Nylon from Ultimaker prints *very good* with the Cura printing profiles. It has none of the ABS problems described here.

And nylon is one of the materials compatible with PVA, which means removing the support is a matter of putting it in a bucket of water.

Nylon is tough, but not stiff. It is kind of flexible. So if your part is holding a wheel or something, it might not be stiff enough.

 

If you need a bit more rigid than Nylon but just as strong and heat resistant UM Polycarb works wonderfully. IMO it prints easier than Nylon (unless you're doing PVA supports) And for medium to small objects you can print PC on straight clean glass. Adhesion sheets for larger prints.

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I've been printing (UM2) exclusively with ABS lately and get perfect parts every time. I'm using Pro Series from Matterhackers. Here's the settings that are working for me: 245C extruder, 110C build plate, no fan, 90% fill, no brim, Wolf Bite solution on glass. I'm currently running 36 pieces of a part that's 3 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/2" tall (obviously spread over several builds). I've tried building on masking tape, Kapton tape, BuildTak glue stick and now Wolfbite. Wolfbite blows the others out of the water. The parts hold tight to the glass w/o a brim until the build is over. As the glass cools you can hear the parts breaking free due to the ABS and glass having difference shrink rates. The parts literally jump off the glass by the time everything has come to room temperature. Even a majority of the flimsy skirt releases when it cools. If you prefer ABS and haven't tried Wolfbite yet then do yourself a favor and get some.

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For those who want to reliably print ABS, there is a way:

Build yourself a housing for für UM2, then you have constant 50°C Temperature inside.

With 250° Nozzle and 100° Buildplate temp, and the famous MTPlus-Buildplate material you can print it very easy. No warping at all. And the results are very sturdy and heat resistant, I print model rockets and the ABS has contact to the hot rocket motor without problems.

The housing can be made several ways, you find many of them in Youmagine, I made one here: https://www.youmagine.com/designs/perfect-fitting-ultimaker-2-cover

The MTPlus-Board is something special, tested many things, but that is the only one which really works. It sticks extremely, but after colling down the object snaps loose from itself.

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Part height matters a lot with ABS. A part that is several inches tall will often have separation part way up the sides. X and Y also matter. A part that is the size of the build plate will be *very* tough to keep held down. Unfortunately it is not just an issue of holding during the print. If you have the optional door on the printer, a pretty big part can make it through the print process. It then may warp / crack as it cools down. Bottom line is that there is a practical size limit to an ABS part running with this or that brand filament and this or that profile. 

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This is all true.  But you can do it.  It takes a while to learn ABS but people here can help you.  It's possible to print a 200mm wide and 100mm tall ABS part on a UM2 or UM3 and have it stick to the glass AND have it not get peeling layers AND have it be nice and strong when all done.  But if you can get away with PLA or nGen then avoid ABS.

 

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