A better Bed Glass - Neoceram Glass

[kmanstudios 1,120]

Do you have your print space enclosed at all? Until I receive my advanced kit, I tape up bubble wrap on the door opening. I do not (at this time) put a tent over the top.

I have tried enclosing the printer and if anything, it makes the problem worse.

Huh....that is odd. But thanks for the info.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

Great Googly Moogly...that is $54.00 USD for one! Ack!! LOL

[tmostad 5]

Great Googly Moogly...that is $54.00 USD for one! Ack!!  LOL

Plus shipping which they seem to want to charge a lot for. Fortunately they are driving distance away for me. If bed flatness isn't an issue for you then spending the extra money won't net you much but if it causes you the kind of problems I was seeing then $75 on top of the $3500 or so doesn't seem excessive. In my opinion, this glass should be original equipment for this printer.

[LePaul 321]

Well the flatness appeals to me, I was thinking for use on the other large scale printers (FT-5 and CR-10) I have. I am satisfied with the glass that came with my UM2+

[kmanstudios 1,120]

Great Googly Moogly...that is $54.00 USD for one! Ack!!  LOL

Plus shipping which they seem to want to charge a lot for. Fortunately they are driving distance away for me. If bed flatness isn't an issue for you then spending the extra money won't net you much but if it causes you the kind of problems I was seeing then $75 on top of the $3500 or so doesn't seem excessive. In my opinion, this glass should be original equipment for this printer.

So far, the plates I have (Original and two borosilicate (SP?) added to that), I have been lucky with the flatness. But I am curious how much it resists chipping and such.

I've gotten better at removing my prints and how to prep the plate, so no issues since the real early days, but at some point, I will drop one or something else stupid.

[SandervG 1,521]

I was curious about the black glass plate too, I understand it did not really contribute in evening out the temperature or did it?

[tmostad 5]

I was curious about the black glass plate too, I understand it did not really contribute in evening out the temperature or did it?

As you can see from the pictures I posted, it didn't do much if anything to even out the temperature gradients. I was seeing 5 to 7 degrees before and about the same with the black glass.

[geert_2 557]

I guess you are always going to have a temperature difference in the plates. A huge temp difference between glass (+60°C, here almost 100°C) and room air (~20°C) causes a strong upwards draft: it will pull in cold air from the sides, and blow off hot air upwards in the middle of the plate. Like the "thermals" outside in nature, in which glider planes keep circling: they can be strong enough to lift a plane from 500m to 1000m in a few minutes. So that will cool down the sides much more than the middle. But the distribution is pretty nice and even, I think.

If this ceramic glass would cause less warping due to temp differences, that would be good for accuracy, especially when printing in the corners of the bed.

Concerning the prints coming off: have you tried different bonding methods? Like dilluted Elmer's wood glue (gr5-method: 1 part glue in 10 parts water), 3DLAC, strong hairspray (neotko-method: spray on tissue, wipe glass plate), my salt method (for PLA only: wipe glass plate with tissue moistened with salt water), or ABS-aceton slurry (ABS-only)?

Normally, some of these bonding methods should work well. Otherwise there may still be something else going on, such as the build plate sitting too far away from the bed?

[LePaul 321]

So the only gain seems to be it is much flatter? That's too bad, it looked promising

[kmanstudios 1,120]

So the only gain seems to be it is much flatter?  That's too bad, it looked promising

May be more resistant to warping and chipping too. Do not know if it is enough to warrant the price. The price is not much of a jump from the borosilicate glasses, but some have said it is not that much better than regular glass in other threads I have read.

[LePaul 321]

I still think I will purchase some, since I know the larger beds warp when heated, so a better glass can't hurt!

[prb4 6]

A flatter glass would I think be a big improvement.

I have three Ultimaker 2+ machines and none has a glass plate that is really flat.

When printing a thin first layer it is quite easy to see the waviness of the glass plate.

I usually choose to level the bed so that the lowest parts of the plate are at the correct distance and other parts are too close. This way I get good adhesion over the majority of the glass plate.

By the way I use the "leveling rings" code that was discussed on the forum a long time ago and it really shows up the waviness of the glass plates. All three of mine have very different shapes.

Peter

[SandervG 1,521]

Well, regarding 'flatter', I think the Ultimaker glass in also pretty flat. There have been a few units which did not meet the spec's sure, but I believe we helped those customers out. But it is a bridge too far to imply Ultimaker glass equals curved glass. (not saying there are no (better) alternatives though).

[neotko 1,417]

Well, regarding 'flatter', I think the Ultimaker glass in also pretty flat. There have been a few units which did not meet the spec's sure, but I believe we helped those customers out. But it is a bridge too far to imply Ultimaker glass equals curved glass. (not saying there are no (better) alternatives though).

I think the issue is the way the material (tempered glass) is made doesn't allow for less range of error than 0.18 And that's almost a first layer.

Neoceram, at least in my experience and on the datasheet has less range of error when is made. Isn't at all an UM issue, but the way the glass is made.

[tmostad 5]

I guess you are always going to have a temperature difference in the plates. A huge temp difference between glass (+60°C, here almost 100°C) and room air (~20°C) causes a strong upwards draft: it will pull in cold air from the sides, and blow off hot air upwards in the middle of the plate. Like the "thermals" outside in nature, in which glider planes keep circling: they can be strong enough to lift a plane from 500m to 1000m in a few minutes. So that will cool down the sides much more than the middle. But the distribution is pretty nice and even, I think.

If this ceramic glass would cause less warping due to temp differences, that would be good for accuracy, especially when printing in the corners of the bed.

Concerning the prints coming off: have you tried different bonding methods? Like dilluted Elmer's wood glue (gr5-method: 1 part glue in 10 parts water), 3DLAC, strong hairspray (neotko-method: spray on tissue, wipe glass plate), my salt method (for PLA only: wipe glass plate with tissue moistened with salt water), or ABS-aceton slurry (ABS-only)?

Normally, some of these bonding methods should work well. Otherwise there may still be something else going on, such as the build plate sitting too far away from the bed?

 

I doubt this has anything to do with convection cooling. I took the plate off and stood it on edge for a series of pictures. The gradient was still quite visible in the pictures. I believe the heating element is not of great quality. 5 to 7 degrees of difference over just a few inches is really a lot. I have considered trying thin copper foil under the glass to see if it makes any difference. Copper has 2X the thermal conductivity of aluminum (or aluminium for some of you). Thin copper may not make a significant difference but it is cheap and easy to try. Now if I just had a diamond plate... It has 5X the heat flow of copper. Wonder when that upgrade will be coming out?

Oh yeah, I have tried the ABS slurry and Wolfbite for ABS as well. ABS shows really serious warping and detachment from the glass, much worse than PLA (I made a front door but that had minimal benefit). Next I am going to try blue tape with PLA to see if it helps.

[neotko 1,417]

 

@tmostad and maybe inserting a hightemp cotton so the heat doesn't escape through the corners/sides? Ofc on um3 is very hard to access but also would stop stuff from falling inside

Edited July 7, 2017 by Guest

[tomnagel 126]

Please study the spec of this glass again. The "D" they are referring to is not the thickness of the plate, but the diagonal of the plate. This means at least their specification is not very interesting.

In practice it might be flatter than ours, but I doubt it. The unflatness is created in the tempering oven, where the plates are transferred on rollers at a very high temperature. As far as I know, all glass mnf use the same method.

The UM glass plates which are in the sales channels now are good. In the past there have been bad batches, and as far as I know all customers with complaints were dealt with by our resellers and sales partners.

[neotko 1,417]

Please study the spec of this glass again. The "D" they are referring to is not the thickness of the plate, but the diagonal of the plate. This means at least their specification is not very interesting.

In practice it might be flatter than ours, but I doubt it. The unflatness is created in the tempering oven, where the plates are transferred on rollers at a very high temperature. As far as I know, all glass mnf use the same method.

The UM glass plates which are in the sales channels now are good. In the past there have been bad batches, and as far as I know all customers with complaints were dealt with by our resellers and sales partners.

Glad new glasses are flatter. The info I got from the reseller that worked on a tempered glass factory fo a time he told me he was surprised that tempered glass was used for a heat/cold part, and that isn't the kind of glass he would use for it (ofc he never seen a 3d printer). Also, in Spain at least they are cheaper than UM glasses.

Edit.

Also, as I said at the first post I'm just a guy that like yo test stuff. I bought them before checking the specs.

One interesting thing is that even after all this months they are nice without any scratches. And UM glasses for me they chiped always in 6-8months. Ofc I tend to abuse the cold/wait times to keep productivity. So for me is nice that they are still as good as new.

Edit: Now that I remember my chat with the glass guy. He told me the main difference when tempered glass cools on a tin bath is that it changes height while doing so, so isn't possible (he said exactly 'very expensive') to make it really 4mm. Interestingly enough I never noticed until he told me this fact, that the UM glass isn't 4mm but 3.8-ish. On the other side, Neoceram - Ceram glass, is actually of the advertised thinkness.

Anyone, I think that since you doubt the flatness, from a document, you guys at UM could just buy one, isn't expensive. Go test, have fun!

Edited July 9, 2017 by Guest

[tmostad 5]

I don't know about bad batches or whatever. I know I posted some pictures here that clearly showed serious inconsistencies in the first layer thickness that no one suggested that I might have bad glass. I assumed what I was seeing was normal. I then purchased some borosilicate glass having heard that is was better. No, it was the same or maybe a little worse. I can say with certainty that the Neoceram is really flat -- not perfect of course but flat enough that auto-leveling actually works. I wonder about warpage that might be caused by the clips pulling the glass onto the non-flat aluminum plate but at this point it seems to be minimal. My biggest concern is the temperature gradient caused by uneven heating by the heating element. I have more experimenting to see if I can at least lessen that.

[tmostad 5]

I tried to lessen the heat gradient on the build glass by putting a sheet of .008" copper under the glass but as I feared it is simply too thin to make any difference. The gradient is still 7+ degrees C center of plate to 1 inch from edge. Is there a spec for this for the printer? Might I just have an out-of-spec heating element?

[tomnagel 126]

7 degrees difference between center and edge is not a problem.

[neotko 1,417]

I tried to lessen the heat gradient on the build glass by putting a sheet of .008" copper under the glass but as I feared it is simply too thin to make any difference. The gradient is still 7+ degrees C center of plate to 1 inch from edge. Is there a spec for this for the printer? Might I just have an out-of-spec heating element?

Maybe you could add a cotton insulation sheet?

https://m.es.aliexpress.com/popular/insulation-heat-bed.html

I don't know if that could work, I never print with more than 70C on bed

[Deto 4]

I tried to get a neoceram plate locally, but no luck :(

But i found this instead, available everywhere with builtin light and heat

[neotko 1,417]

I tried to get a neoceram plate locally, but no luck :(

But i found this instead, available everywhere with builtin light and heat

Nice hahaah. Btw!

I tested a ipad pro 'gorilla' glass and they work, but they break in peaces if you fail or try to remove it. Also since I didn't had glass cutting tools it has leftovers on the sides. So is very easy to break.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Guest

[SandervG 1,521]

Sounds like a pretty good deal