Filament size worries

[latreides 4]

@latreides, congratulations with getting an Ultimaker 2+. I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Oh I am very. It just works. Thats all I ever wanted out of a printer. This printer is amazing. I am glad there are at least 3rd party solutions, though an official solution would be perfect.

You have a concern that 2.85 might go out of fashion, and some users here don't.

I didn't research for very long and I found numerous vendors and suppliers that stopped 2.85 mm support, almost all of the brands/vendors that I used for my 1.75 mm do not make 2.85 mm versions (or I cannot find them online anywhere), and the number of printers released every year that support 1.75 mm dwarf the number of 2.85 mm printers (and thus the number of people buying filament). That paints a pretty clear picture to me. You can interpret it however you want, but it tells me that 2.85 mm is on borrowed time.

That being said, the fact that there IS a solution, even a 3rd party one, was enough to convince me to buy an UM2+, and its quite an amazing machine. No regrets here, just voicing worries so that maybe an official solution can be made.

And I'm curious to see what you will be making. Care to share your prints with us on our 3D print page?

I definitely plan to.

[Ronan 58]

@latreides, congratulations with getting an Ultimaker 2+. I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Oh I am very.  It just works.  Thats all I ever wanted out of a printer.  This printer is amazing.  I am glad there are at least 3rd party solutions, though an official solution would be perfect.

You have a concern that 2.85 might go out of fashion, and some users here don't.

I didn't research for very long and I found numerous vendors and suppliers that stopped 2.85 mm support,  almost all of the brands/vendors that I used for my 1.75 mm do not make 2.85 mm versions (or I cannot find them online anywhere), and the number of printers released every year that support 1.75 mm dwarf the number of 2.85 mm printers (and thus the number of people buying filament).  That paints a pretty clear picture to me.  You can interpret it however you want, but it tells me that 2.85 mm is on borrowed time.

That being said, the fact that there IS a solution, even a 3rd party one, was enough to convince me to buy an UM2+, and its quite an amazing machine.  No regrets here, just voicing worries so that maybe an official solution can be made.

And I'm curious to see what you will be making. Care to share your prints with us on our 3D print page?

I definitely plan to.

Which brands do you use? All the popular one's in NA and Europe sell 2.85mm. Heck, even new one's with 'speciality/exotic' filaments also have 2.85mm. You can even find the dirt cheap chinese filaments in all size/color flavors (we only use high quality filaments at work though).

[latreides 4]

I no longer have any 1.75 mm to look up brands again (and I didn't make a list), but one off the top of my head is TIANSE which I had a lot of.

Its not that you cannot find a lot of 2.85 mm out there. There is quite a bit of it to be sure. Please don't get me wrong. I am not having trouble finding 2.85 mm right now. Its just that in my research to figureout if the UM was the right purchase for me, I left very few stones unturned, and what I found for the filament sizes was worrying. Obviously not enough to deter me, the machine is fantastic.

[neotko 1,417]

I no longer have any 1.75 mm to look up brands again (and I didn't make a list), but one off the top of my head is TIANSE which I had a lot of.

Its not that you cannot find a lot of 2.85 mm out there. There is quite a bit of it to be sure. Please don't get me wrong. I am not having trouble finding 2.85 mm right now. Its just that in my research to figureout if the UM was the right purchase for me, I left very few stones unturned, and what I found for the filament sizes was worrying. Obviously not enough to deter me, the machine is fantastic.

 

TIANSE?

Doesn't look like anything special at all

https://www.amazon.com/TIANSE-Printer-Filament-Dimensional-Accuracy/dp/B01NCRVSF6

[latreides 4]

TIANSE?

Doesn't look like anything special at all

https://www.amazon.com/TIANSE-Printer-Filament-Dimensional-Accuracy/dp/B01NCRVSF6

 

I never made a claim otherwise. The claim I made was that there are vendors/suppliers that don't make 2.85 mm (and never have) and some that no longer make 2.85 mm. I didn't have to scour the corners of the internet to find a filament supplier that doesn't support 2.85 mm either, all I had to do was look at the filament I was already printing with and search those brands, and the results were not good.

I am not sure what we will gain by more discussion, but I am happy to answer any more questions.

[neotko 1,417]

 

TIANSE?

Doesn't look like anything special at all

https://www.amazon.com/TIANSE-Printer-Filament-Dimensional-Accuracy/dp/B01NCRVSF6

 

I never made a claim otherwise.  The claim I made was that there are vendors/suppliers that don't make 2.85 mm (and never have) and some that no longer make 2.85 mm.  I didn't have to scour the corners of the internet to find a filament supplier that doesn't support 2.85 mm either, all I had to do was look at the filament I was already printing with and search those brands, and the results were not good.

I am not sure what we will gain by more discussion, but I am happy to answer any more questions.

 

I mean, the link is for 1.75mm of that brand on amazon, hardly hard to find if it's on amazon. Anyhow fell free to think wherever fits you. I use 1.75 mm on my machines just because.

Anyhow now I see. You don't find that brand making 2.85mm. Well, find a better brand. There are plenty of plastics and colors to choose, and that brand colors are hardly hard to find. Ofc 1.75 had more impact probably because makerbot predominance years ago in usa, but I highly doubt that you will find problems on hard to find (unique) materials or on the top brands (not china or low quality).

Also, you can just install a second hotend/extruder with 1.75mm and use 2.85 or 1.75 as you see fit.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Guest

[SandervG 1,521]

@Neotko, with the Mark 2? Didn't think of that before. Would it make sense? I can imagine it would make sense to either go full 1.75 or stay 2.85.

For the sake of discussion, would combining it in a dual print result in a normally strong print or would layer bonding be weaker or something?

[neotko 1,417]

@SandervG no, well that could work too, but I mean with the normal conventional setup, just adding a second hotend on the unused hole. Ofc um2+ fancap would need to be changed by a printed version (for the extra hole). But with @tinkergnome since you can swap Extruder 1 <-> Extruder 2, it would allow to print anything with one or the other extruder without changing much.

For Dual using two different filament sizes I don't think it could be an issue, it might even be useful for some situations since 1.75 drips less (less mass vs gravity + needs less heat to extrude) and a second head with 2.85 for flexibles (flexibles are easier to print with 2.85 than 1.75 since the filament is thicker and easier to push).

Personally for dual I would just use 1.75mm unless I really need to print flexibles really really fast, but atm with the ZGE I can already do a 60mm/s 0.2 layer speed with quite ok quality, so dunno...

[latreides 4]

Anyhow now I see. You don't find that brand making 2.85mm.

Not quite. I can find plenty of brands that make 2.85 mm, thats not the issue.

Well, find a better brand.

I am not sure how the availability of 2.85 mm or not makes a brand better than another one. Would a brand that sold garbage 2.85 mm be better than a brand that only sold 1.75 mm?

There are plenty of plastics and colors to choose, and that brand colors are hardly hard to find.

This was never an issue.

on hard to find (unique) materials or on the top brands (not china or low quality).

I don't use unique materials, so that isn't much of an issue for me. Its the "top brands" situation you mention that I worry about. I have printed with a few "higher end" brands like Ultimaker and Polymaker and after about a kg of each, I can say with certainty that they don't provide a better print than the filament I get for $15-$20 per kg. I don't want to be in the situation where I pay a premium of 3x the price because they are the only game in town.

Also, you can just install a second hotend/extruder with 1.75mm and use 2.85 or 1.75 as you see fit.

I have gone down the path of installing after market 3rd party hotend/extruders before (I installed a Titan Aero in my other printer), and its not an enjoyable experience. Its hard to trouble shoot and problem solve when your setup is not only uncommon, but also not official. There is also the matter of very little information for the 3rd party solution. I like to know that it exists, but without more information (like how do the parts stack up to the official UM2+ parts, will they last, how good does it still print 6 months from now?)

[neotko 1,417]

Anyhow now I see. You don't find that brand making 2.85mm.

Not quite. I can find plenty of brands that make 2.85 mm, thats not the issue.

Well, find a better brand.

I am not sure how the availability of 2.85 mm or not makes a brand better than another one. Would a brand that sold garbage 2.85 mm be better than a brand that only sold 1.75 mm?

There are plenty of plastics and colors to choose, and that brand colors are hardly hard to find.

This was never an issue.

on hard to find (unique) materials or on the top brands (not china or low quality).

I don't use unique materials, so that isn't much of an issue for me. Its the "top brands" situation you mention that I worry about. I have printed with a few "higher end" brands like Ultimaker and Polymaker and after about a kg of each, I can say with certainty that they don't provide a better print than the filament I get for $15-$20 per kg. I don't want to be in the situation where I pay a premium of 3x the price because they are the only game in town.

Also, you can just install a second hotend/extruder with 1.75mm and use 2.85 or 1.75 as you see fit.

I have gone down the path of installing after market 3rd party hotend/extruders before (I installed a Titan Aero in my other printer), and its not an enjoyable experience. Its hard to trouble shoot and problem solve when your setup is not only uncommon, but also not official. There is also the matter of very little information for the 3rd party solution. I like to know that it exists, but without more information (like how do the parts stack up to the official UM2+ parts, will they last, how good does it still print 6 months from now?)

I really don't understand your worries then. I never had any info of how to do the umo to 1.75 but I did it, it took time, practice and many mods to make it work. For um2 hotend all is easier since 3dsolex sells the parts (olsson, couplers) and bondtech has 1.75 and 2.85 feeders. So right now you could install any or both setups. Ofc any mod requires to learn how to change stuff. UM will never change um2 to 1.75 simply because is an 'old' model. The only way they use a 1.75 might reside (or not at all) on future models. I say this because if they don't even update the um2 firmware I highly doubt they would change the machine. As for filament availability I still don't see any hard figures but speculation. Could be nice to know what a colorfabb or polymaker thinks about 1.75 vs 2.85 demand.

[latreides 4]

I say this because if they don't even update the um2 firmware I highly doubt they would change the machine.

Updating the firmware cost them time and effort, and is provided to the end users for free.  Selling an upgrade kit (much like the + upgrade kits) is a new product that can make them even more money on an existing product.

Could be nice to know what a colorfabb or polymaker thinks about 1.75 vs 2.85 demand.

I don't think numbers from those manufacturers would be useful.  They would most definitly be skewed to show a much larger 2.85 demand than there is (generally).  These filaments are much more expensive than their competitors at about 2 to 3 times the cost.  Most of the 2.85 printers are in the high end categories ($2000-$5000) which means that most of the people with 2.85 printers have more money to spend on 3d printing, and are more likely to buy from the more "premium" brands.  Unfortunately, numbers from the other side (less expensive brands) will fall victim to the same bias, just the other direction.  There is to big of a price gap between the different manufactures for any data to be useable.

For um2 hotend all is easier since 3dsolex sells the parts (olsson, couplers) and bondtech has 1.75 and 2.85 feeders. So right now you could install any or both setups. Ofc any mod requires to learn how to change stuff.

I have tried to make my point clear about mods, and why this isn't as viable as a solution as its made out to be.

1. What is the percentage of UM2+ users that have this mod?  Single digit or less I would imagine.  I would be surprised if its greater than 1%.  This means that I have almost no recourse in troubleshooting.  Trying to figure out why my UM2+ is doing this or that, well it might be because of the mod, or it might not.  I would have added a very big unknown to the equation.

2. There is very little information about this mod (or the other similar mods).  What is the quality?  How long do the parts last?  What drawbacks or issues have been encountered?  A few peoples anecdotal experiences are hardly the type of multiple independent third party reviews that inspire confidence in a product.  I read dozens of reviews, watched dozens more, and browsed multiple forums before I decided that the UM2+ was the kind of machine I was looking for.  These mods are relatively unknown, and therefor not really a viable solution unless there is no other choice.

An official solution would inspire more confidence in the quality, would likely be reviewed by many of the review sites/channels, and possibly even convince a larger percentage to adopt it, potentially eliminating (or at least reducing) the impact from the first point.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Guest

[neotko 1,417]

Indeed there's very little info of how to actually do the mod, is easy for the ones that knowhow and is hard for a user that just want to turn the machine and use it. I bet that the big consumers (companies and business that need more than 1-5 units) they just get official support and pay for the fixes instead of learning how to fix them themselves, so most probably the UM2/UM2+ users base than knowhow to do the mod is less than 1%

This also explains why um3 is so focused on having the doors closed (like very hard to diy firmware) and they have focus on Cores so the 1-2 unit user doesn't even need to ever learn how to change a heater or a nozzle.

So about 1.75mm. Test, etc etc. I have done a lot, for me. There's much I can't share just because time is limited and most users don't even care about printing better or even care about small stuff like being able to do precise extrusion. I have change my machines so much that they are hardly anything that can be bought on the market directly, from shafts of high quality to misumi, to bondtech ZGE extruder, bed stabilizer, much more powerful fans than um2/um3, better airfancap to work at highprint speeds and a lot of settings that allow me to print at 70mm/s with the quality of a 40mm/s. I have shared every single mod along this two years but making a single post explained every single detail isn't on my todo, just because my work/shop needs my time more than anything else. Also I don't need to prove my point since, well, not many users actually care about precision but just extruding plastic without learning why/what/how everything happens.

So. 1.75 is better IMO on bowden, but 2.85 with a directdrive like zge is better. Why? Many reasons, too many for this post.

To be short

2.85 bowden < 1.75 bowden < 1.75 DD < 2.85 DD

But ofc.. All depends on what you print, and if you really need to print fast or you don't care about leaving the printer for days for a simple job.

[latreides 4]

So. 1.75 is better IMO on bowden, but 2.85 with a directdrive like zge is better. Why? Many reasons, too many for this post.

To be short

2.85 bowden < 1.75 bowden < 1.75 DD < 2.85 DD

But ofc.. All depends on what you print, and if you really need to print fast or you don't care about leaving the printer for days for a simple job.

For me its not about the quality or use cases of 1.75 vs 2.85, its simply about future availability. It is also quite a pain that of all my friends and coworkers with 3d printers (there are quite a few of them, growing every day) not a single one of them has a 2.85 printer, so I am over here on my own little island. Oh they need a little bit of orange for a project? I have orange...oh wait, they can't use it (this actually came up today!). Oh they got this new filament, I want to try it...oh wait, I can't use it.

I do not like making modifications, but I am no stranger to it, and willing to put in the effort. When I speak of quality I speak of the components, of the mod itself. Does it reduce the life span of the other parts? Will I have to replace parts on the mod more often than the original? Are the parts on the mod the same quality as the original? Will it conflict with other mods (like the Dual Extrusion) one?

Small one off mods, like "replace this rod that is known to wear out with this super durable rod and never have to worry about it again" are great. I love this kind of thing. But "replace this official extruder/hotend that has quality components in it, with one that is of unknown quality and may cause other issues" are less likely to be viable for me.

[1-prop-head 1]

I too prefer 1.75 filament and specifically ABS. I have been printing exclusively in this size filament on a couple of Ultimaker 2 printers for over a year

My initial choice to convert the Ultimaker 2 to 1.75 filament was because the stepper motor would skip steps when printing 2.85 filament on an older Ultimaker I was using. This problem was solved when I switched to 1.75 because of the speed difference to push longer lengths of filament to get the same volume of plastic extruded. You will need to address the following issues if you take an Ulitmaker 2 down the 1.75 filament pathway route.

1 - Your bowden should be 2mm id. 2mm ID PTFE tubing is easy to find online and but to make it fit into the stock feeder and extruder fittings you are going to need to make some changes. I found that on the feeder end it was easy to purchase a push lock fitting that fit the 4mm OD of the 2mm tubing. Adapting it to the stock feeder was done by printing an adapter. The other end I settled on using tubing suitable for the 2.85 filament and pushing the 2mm ID tubing into this tubing to create an outer sleeve. The most difficult element was to insert a straight pin into the sleeve so it would just catch the outer edge of the inner tubing to lock it in place. I made a jig to assist in this procedure.

2. - You will need a 2mm ID thermal buffer and a 2mm ID nozzle for the extruder end. I found these online and they work great you can even find a 2mm Olson Block.

3. - If you chose to use Cura 2.5 or Cura 2.6 you will find that that the material settings in the printer are ignored and you will need to print at a material flow of 22% to not over extrude your print.

In the end I also made a feeder with a 2mm pathway to replace the stock feeder and

a aluminum sleeve to replaced the spring in the extruder just like the one used in the Ultimaker 2+.

[neotko 1,417]

3. - If you chose to use Cura 2.5 or Cura 2.6 you will find that that the material settings in the printer are ignored and you will need to print at a material flow of 22% to not over extrude your print.

If you need to use 22% flow is because you forgot to change filament size in cura to 1.75mm

Since 22 % of 2.85 ³ is very close to 1.75 ³

Afaik filament size is perfectly editable on any Cura version (but probably is one of that hidden settings by default)

[meduza 191]

On the Ultimaker 2 (i.e in UltiGcode) the gcode is volumetric and filament size is set on the printer, just turn it down to 1.75mm, OR change your gcode flavour to RepRap (Volumetric) in your printer settings in Cura and turn on the "Diameter" setting under "Material" and you will be able to set the filament diameter in Cura.

So, no need for the "22% flow" hack.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Guest

[flowalistik 181]

As many have already said, 1.75mm filament is getting more and more popular, while only 3 big players still use 2.85mm (Ultimaker, BCN3D and Lulzbot).

I'm currently living in France, and some time ago someone asked me if I had any difficulties finding 2.85mm filament in France. I did a quick search on the three online shops I buy from, and the average ratio 2.85-1.75mm was 1 to 3. There are more brands and colors in 1.75mm filament, and my favorite supplier recently told me they were not going to restock 2.85mm due to the low demand.

I'm not afraid about being abandoned by any manufacturers (printers or filaments). The day I have any trouble, I will convert my printers to 1.75mm. It's not difficult and we have @neotko ! Nothing can go wrong.

Oh, also, I modified my Ultimaker Original+ to run 1.75mm while testing Mosaic Manufacturing's Palette and it was a bad but cheap/fast mod.

[latreides 4]

my favorite supplier recently told me they were not going to restock 2.85mm due to the low demand.

This is exactly the situation that I fear happening. As the demand for 1.75 mm grows and the 2.85 demand mostly stagnates, we are going to see this happen more often. I wish more printers would be released at 2.85 mm, but they all seem to be following the 1.75 mm trend. There are mods out there to get 1.75 mm on the UM2+, so its not a doomsday situation if 2.85 were to be discontinued by most manufacturers, its just an inconvenient unknown that would be helped out a lot by an official solution.