Replacing heater with 35w heater

[cloakfiend 995]

Hi,

I was silly and attempted to change my nozzle back to the original one and all was going well until my curiosity about the heater temperature ruined the day. I touched the heater I can't remember if it was on or not but i guess it was because as soon as i touched it it went red hot like the pic and then burnt itself out. Stupid me i know, but luckily i have a new heater and sensor, from before that i didn't need, but the heater cable is stripped, do i need to do some soldering? sorry if this has been answered a million times if you could point me to a page that would take me through this  would be grateful but i don't have a soldering iron at the mo but wondering if i need one?

Thanks.

just after I touched it!

A moment later 'burnt out'?

Which end is which?

any help would be grateful, I think I have everything apart from the soldering iron.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Guest

[cloakfiend 995]

Never mind folks, I don't think i'll need the soldering iron! yay! I saw some info here in the help section.

BTW Is the 35W heater ok to use with the standard UM2 nozzle and heater sensor?

Do i need to replace both from the photos above, or should the sensor be ok, just the heater replacing, I'd hate to have to unscrew it all again. It was properly melted together from the coupler, as i have not touched it for 2 years of printing!

Thanks.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Guest

[cloakfiend 995]

How do i differentiate between positive and negative cable on the new heater though? does it matter where i plug them in as they look identical?

[stu_le_brew 42]

I do not think the heater connections matter (ie no positive or negative) you may want to take a look at the UM2 assembly manual click here for reassurance

- page 64

[cloakfiend 995]

Thanks, I'll be referring to this a lot in the next hour....

[cloakfiend 995]

The green thing that the heater plugs into is different from this guide though? theres no screws in mine, lol. not sure how to get out, some weird orange things there?

...sorted. just jammed a screwdriver into them seemed to do the trick!

Edited September 9, 2017 by Guest

[cloakfiend 995]

Ok, all seems to work now, but the temps are wildly going up to 196 and down to 184 and yo-yoing, without settling. I guess something is touching the print head or something? I would check, but I'm printing something as a test at the mo. I can see layer lines though so i know its not the usual high standard of the UM2. Im just to eager to get the thing up and running again. Just checking if the 35W heater is ok to use with the original um2 nozzle? Either way I will try to tinker with it to get stable temps as + or - 10 degrees is looking not very acceptable in my eyes from a quality perspective, as my temps are usually stable... I must have done something wrong... again....

[stu_le_brew 42]

the 35W heater will be OK with the original print head, you problem is more likely to be (IMO) the sensor not fully inserted home to the end of the hole or maybe not secured with the screw.

If its in correctly it shouldn't be possible to move it, temp variation is usually only a few degrees once target temp has been reached.

[cloakfiend 995]

Thanks for the advice! I just checked if the nozzle was touching anything and it wasn't. So I have no idea now. I left a print overnight and the results are not very good. I thought I pushed the sensor right in. but ill double check and make sure to tighten the screw as much as i can without damaging anything. I have a spare sensor so if I'm too rough I can always replace it, but no spare heater which sucks, as I tend to break things in pairs! lol.

Even when doing a basic heat up nozzle, the temps hit the right temp, but then rise quickly buy 5 or 6 degrees and then fall to the selected heat and then fall another 5 or 6 degrees, and it keeps doing that.... grrrr... back to taking it apart again....

[geert_2 557]

I don't have any experience with replacing the heater and sensor on these printers. But I did build a couple of electronics machines in the past. So my comments below are educated guesses, but not necessarily correct or complete.

Probably the heater got red hot because you disconnected the sensor from it. So the feedback-loop was broken, and the system kept on heating and heating, because it did not sense any change in temp. I don't know how long these heaters can withstand this without burning out?

If - after assembling everything again - the temp overshoots a lot, with identical components as before, then I would guess that: or the heat does not flow away fast enough (so the applied heat overshoots the set temp), or the sensor does not sense the changes fast enough (maybe bad mechanical connection).

Things you might want to verify:

- Does the little fan at the back of the nozzle work? It should take superfluous heat away.

- Is there good mechanical contact between sensor and nozzle?

- Good mechanical contact between heater and nozzle?

- Is the aluminum fan mount not touching the nozzle? This can be hard to see, so you might need a mirror and magnifying lens. (However, if the aluminum plate would be touching the nozzle, it would rather work as a heat sink, and cause the temp to go up too slow, or not reach the set temp at all, instead of overshooting, I think.)

- I guess you did not update the firmware, and did not change any firmware settings? Different firmware might behave differently. But if you did not touch this, this isn't going to be the problem.

If the system still less or more regulates the temperature, I guess the electronics are still okay. Otherwise I would expect the heater to be full on or full off, but not regulating.

I do not know what is inside these heaters, but probably just a resistor. In that case, it doesn't matter in which way you connect the wires (the "plus and minus"), since there is no plus and minus. Just make sure there is no short circuit and the connections are good, so the heat is developed in the heater only, and not anywhere else along the traject in a bad connection or in a short circuit.

But as said, these are guesses...

[cloakfiend 995]

Thanks for the information, The screw was in upside down, duh! Thats what I get for not realising there is actually a screw hole within the screw! I remember not realising that last time and trying to pull out the heater and breaking it along with the sensor. Its called not reading instructions and trying to do things by eye. I lost a few screws as well, but i think they are just fan screws so thats ok. Its back to holding temps again!!! Im back in business, but I'm thinking of replacing the bearing with some nice new ones. I saw a link some time ago that someone posted there varieties and some really high spec ones which are overpriced, but seeing as i only need a 2 of them? i don't mind paying. I had some issues when installing the wrong fan some time ago and the metal stuck out of the back and as the head was homing home it started grinding the belts as the metal was preventing it from getting there.

[cloakfiend 995]

No the annoying yo-yo temperature shit is happening again, I'm annoyed. I really don't know what to do now?. I may just leave it or buy a new print head (unless it comes with an OB which i don't want anymore), but find it very annoying that this is happening. Ill replace the sensor, but if that doesn't help then ill just give up and concentrate on sculpting some more as i really suck at fixing things by the looks of it. It just gets a bit depressing when you have taken things apart a few time only to get no where. I can't turn the fans on full so i can't get good quality.

My UM2 is totally out of action which is a shame.....

The only thing i can think of is that the new heater is too strong and overcompensates. I really don't know how its programmed though and don't have the time or patience to sit around with it for hours. I've already done my back in and leaning over this printer is the last thing I want to do.

[cloakfiend 995]

Just one more question, as I unscrewed everything and tightened the screw in the UM2 brass nozzle to what I thought was tight enough but perhaps not.

How tight can it go before I break or damage the heater sensor ?

My temps fluctuate now by 3 degrees instead of 5. So perhaps i need to tighten it more? but in afraid of breaking it, but i already see dramatic improvements in quality and see a much finer detail level than when using the OB.

I won't give up, but I just hate it when I don't know what the real issue is, I think I'll buy a few spare temp sensors and heaters just in case I ruin mine trying. Might get a spare nozzle while I'm at it just in case i can't get the temp sensor out like last time.

Because now I actually see the improvements in am driven to get it to work! I'll be back.... and as usual sorry for the rant. And thank you to all offering help, I really do appreciate it though I may have a funny way of showing it.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Guest

[neotko 1,417]

@cloakfiend Let’s go back to the basics

You had a 25W heater before or a 35W?

If you had a 25W and installed a 35W one then you must update the PID values to get a stable heat

Also, you could run a PID calibration, but afaik with the 35W PID it works just fine, specially since you have already check all the installation possible issues.

About olsson/notolsson I really don’t see any issue on mines they all stay put at their temp. Specially since you use the um2 fans that are really weak it’s very hard that could be an issue.

If you want to improve (in general) the heat stability you could use a silicon sock, e3d-online sells them for e3d blocks but with some minimum exacto knofe cuts they fit perfectly fit between the block and aluminum fancap, that will increase enormously the heat stability in general (specially when the fans go full you will get much less temperature drop down).

So PID for 35W (same um2+ uses) is

P 10.03

i 1.50

d 70.0

I hope it helps. Cheers!

[cloakfiend 995]

Thanks neo,

Where do I enter these PID values?

If I have too many problems I'll just buy a 25W heater, That worked fine even with an OB.

How about the question about screwing it in tight. If i screw it tighter, can i break the sensor and nozzle?

I'll look into the sock too, but I am just after retiring the printer to the original setup as I did have any problems with quality in the beginning.

Without the screw in the block tightened i had +/- 11-12 degrees flotation, after tightening it is 6-8 degrees fluctuation.

either way i'll keep trying!!! thanks again!

[neotko 1,417]

Thanks neo,

Where do I enter these PID values?

If I have too many problems I'll just buy a 25W heater, That worked fine even with an OB.

How about the question about screwing it in tight. If i screw it tighter, can i break the sensor and nozzle?

I'll look into the sock too, but I am just after retiring the printer to the original setup as I did have any problems with quality in the beginning.

Without the screw in the block tightened i had +/- 11-12 degrees flotation, after tightening it is 6-8 degrees fluctuation.

either way i'll keep trying!!! thanks again!

Easy way to change it since UM firmware doesn’t allow to do it with the menus (but the fantastic tinkegnome does)

Make .gcode text file for example called PID35.gcode

On the text file insert this 4 lines

M301 P10.03 I1.50 D70

M500

G28 X0

; done

this will set and save the new PID and will do Home on the X axis

Note to the guys that know more: I added the G28 because most of the time it’s easy to forget to add a return after the m500 and without it, it doesn’t execute the line

If you don’t know how to make a .gcode file just get any cura file, open on a editor txt file, remove all whats inside and place the 4 lines

After doing this you won’t need to do it again unless you change the heater to 25W, in that case you need to do a Restore Factory settings using the um2 menus to restore the 25W pid values.

[cloakfiend 995]

Thanks a lot Neo for this, I kinda wandered if i could just put in a more powerful heater without changing any settings but tried twice anyways.

If this works I need to get you a little present for helping me so much!

[cloakfiend 995]

Is this OK @neotko?

[amedee 349]

Yes it is!

[neotko 1,417]

Is this OK @neotko?

 

Mac, ok that I know. Change the edit mode to simple text

Go on the menus of "Format" and then click "Make Plain Text" and save.

[SandervG 1,521]

The PID value is probably and most likely what was causing these overshoots, thanks Neo! When putting everything back, also make sure your nozzle is not touching the fan bracket, as heat can flow away through it.

Good luck, curious to see the results!

[cloakfiend 995]

Thanks all for the help.

I've made sure the screw is tight and the nozzle is not touching. But because i got slightly less temperature variance swings after, i thought that maybe i need to tighten it even more. I am now worried that ive tightened it too much!

Also about the text file....dont worry i will do it on windows in plain text like normal but was curious if the 'done ;)' was needed or simply didnt matter?

Im just asking too many questions to be sure because no one got back regarding the screw too tight.

Anyways thanks again and hopefully ill be back printing lolcats!

I still have to finish my ultimate acetone tutorial but I need to order way more nitrate gloves.....

[amedee 349]

Also about the text file....dont worry i will do it on windows in plain text like normal but was curious if the 'done ;)' was needed or simply didnt matter?

 

Line starting with a semi-colon ';' are comments, so it does not matter, and having a comment as last line is always good -- as @neotko mentioned if you don't have a proper line end at the end of the file, the last command might be ignored, so adding a comment ensures everything before is executed.

[neotko 1,417]

Thanks all for the help.

I've made sure the screw is tight and the nozzle is not touching. But because i got slightly less temperature variance swings after, i thought that maybe i need to tighten it even more. I am now worried that ive tightened it too much!

Also about the text file....dont worry i will do it on windows in plain text like normal but was curious if the 'done ;)' was needed or simply didnt matter?

Im just asking too many questions to be sure because no one got back regarding the screw too tight.

Anyways thanks again and hopefully ill be back printing lolcats!

I still have to finish my ultimate acetone tutorial but I need to order way more nitrate gloves.....

 

Like @Amedee said

I hope it works

BTW! DONT WORRY about the initial overshoot, it happens with 35W, it calms down and go stable really fast, just dont panic if it hits +10C and then goes stable after a minute or much less. It should remain very stable after that.

[cloakfiend 995]

Ok thanks for the good info, But still no one said if i can over tighten the nozzle screw that keeps the heater and heatsensor in place?

If i overtighten it will it damage anything?

...I assume I run the pid35.gcode as if i was printing an object from the print menu, or do i go somewhere else? Thanks again. Thats all my questions!!!