Question(s) for those with Bondtech Extruders/DDG Extruder thoughts?

[mendells 55]

I was wondering what kind of speeds users with Bondtech extruders are using? My print speeds are fairly low as I have seen quality issues when printing above 40mm/s (using 0.4mm nozzle and 0.1mm layers) and I was curious if Bondtech users have been able to print faster without quality loss?

I also noticed they have a new extruder (DDG) for the UM2+ that uses much of the existing UM2+ extruder components. Other than being a slightly lower gear ratio than the QR extruders (311 steps/mm vs 492.45 steps/mm) the drive mechanism is the same, so for $70 less the DDG extruder seems like a good deal.

http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits/ultimaker/ddg-extruder_ultimaker2_en.html

[ultiarjan 1,223]

Though I have not seen the DDG irl it's seems to me it has one disadvantage over the old bondtech models as you can't reach the gears for cleaning. The bondtech type drive-wheels do pollute (fill up with filament) sometimes. Not a big issue, I use and like the bondtech myself on one machine, but it does need cleaning once and a while. Of course you can also take apart the new model, but it's less easy.

[mendells 55]

Though I have not seen the DDG irl it's seems to me it has one disadvantage over the old bondtech models as you can't reach the gears for cleaning. The bondtech type drive-wheels do pollute (fill up with filament) sometimes. Not a big issue, I use and like the bondtech myself on one machine, but it does need cleaning once and a while. Of course you can also take apart the new model, but it's less easy.

 

Thanks for the input. I already take ours apart every 6 months or so for cleaning so it isn't a big concern but it is something to think about.

Have you been able to increase your print speed at all or are you just seeing more reliable prints?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Guest

[ultiarjan 1,223]

I usually print slow. IMHO the feeder is not the bottleneck regarding print speed. I'm talking about um2+ feeder ofc. I feel for the old (black) um2 feeder a feeder upgrade is a must but I'm perfectly happy with the current um feeder.

[latreides 4]

So the past couple months my UM2+ has been getting worse and worse to the point where it cannot print anything at all.  The extruder constantly grinds the filament and doesn't extrude the correct amount (sometimes nothing at all).

I posted about it (with pictures) here:

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/52126-extrusion-issues-um2

I decided to upgrade the extruder as the first step in fixing/troubleshooting this, and went with the DDG.  Without any other fixes/upgrades (those are on their way), the DDG has made a night and day difference.  My first (and so far only) print on my UM2+ since the upgrade (yesterday) went very well.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Guest

[Hammerd 0]

So the past couple months my UM2+ has been getting worse and worse to the point where it cannot print anything at all.  The extruder constantly grinds the filament and doesn't extrude the correct amount (sometimes nothing at all).

I posted about it (with pictures) here:

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/52126-extrusion-issues-um2

I decided to upgrade the extruder as the first step in fixing/troubleshooting this, and went with the DDG.  Without any other fixes/upgrades (those are on their way), the DDG has made a night and day difference.  My first (and so far only) print on my UM2+ since the upgrade (yesterday) went very well.

 

That's good to hear. I just ordered a set of these for my UM3.

[cjs 34]

Hi, Christopher here. (One of the designers of the Bondtech DDG)

I’m happy to answer your questions ;-)

Regarding print speed: Early on in the development phase I created a quick speed performance test. The result of the test can be seen in the picture below. The same G-Code file was used but the extruder/feeder changed.

The test shows, that the Bondtech DDG is able to push with more force then the Ultimaker factory extruder. Therefore you may increase your print speeds, but please be aware that the Bondtech DDG is only one part of the equation.

A prominent speed increase can be seen if your print flexible filament. I print Ultimaker TPU @50mm/s without any issues. May print speed of the the Ultimaker factory extruder is about 25mm/s.

Cleaning: In theory the UM factory feeder may need to be cleaned less often. In practice I would say it’s the same. Martin and I chose to include a small window for the user to check if the gears need to be cleaned. Cleaning can be done exactly the same way.

Main benefit of the upgrade is the improved reliability. From time to time I also encountered grinding and slipping like latreides. Especially if you print at bigger layer heights. Since the first prototype of the Bondtech DDG I haven’t had any!

[ultiarjan 1,223]

Ah so you can see the wheels. That's very nice. So basically it's just 4 screws to open it for cleaning right?

[latreides 4]

Ah so you can see the wheels. That's very nice. So basically it's just 4 screws to open it for cleaning right?

 

Yes its very similar to the stock extruder except its made of sturdier materials and grips the filament better and from both sides.

[cjs 34]

Ah so you can see the wheels. That's very nice. So basically it's just 4 screws to open it for cleaning right?

Yes, just four screws to open the top cover. Five if you count the screw to release the spring tension

You can see the main drive gear through this window.

[mendells 55]

Hi, Christopher here. (One of the designers of the Bondtech DDG)

I’m happy to answer your questions ;-)

Regarding print speed: Early on in the development phase I created a quick speed performance test. The result of the test can be seen in the picture below. The same G-Code file was used but the extruder/feeder changed.

The test shows, that the Bondtech DDG is able to push with more force then the Ultimaker factory extruder. Therefore you may increase your print speeds, but please be aware that the Bondtech DDG is only one part of the equation.

A prominent speed increase can be seen if your print flexible filament. I print Ultimaker TPU @50mm/s without any issues. May print speed of the the Ultimaker factory extruder is about 25mm/s.

Cleaning: In theory the UM factory feeder may need  to be cleaned less often. In practice I would say it’s the same. Martin and I chose to include a small window for the user to check if the gears need to be cleaned. Cleaning can be done exactly the same way.

Main benefit of the upgrade is the improved reliability. From time to time I also encountered grinding and slipping like latreides. Especially if you print at bigger layer heights. Since the first prototype of the Bondtech DDG I haven’t had any!

 

Hi Christopher,

Thanks for the information!

Could you provide some more specifics on the settings for the speed test image? What layer height, print speed, and material were used?

The Bondtech feeder does seem to be a big improvement and we do print a lot of TPU here so it probably makes sense to upgrade.

Thanks,

Scott

[rebekah_harper 60]

CJS,

I have been looking at this for a while wondering if this will be the way to go.

I print with 0.15mm nozzle regularly. so slow speed is required. more as the stepper struggles at the slower speed.

but go higher and there are a few problems there too.

so am I right in saying that the bond tech has stepped it down so that in order to extrude the same speed as factory, the stepper motor requires to turn faster?

Bex

[ultiarjan 1,223]

Yes the Bondtech is stepping down requering more motor rotations but so does the current ultimaker feeder. Only the old um2 feeder, the black one, had the knurled wheel directly placed on the motorshaft

[cjs 34]

@mendells Sure!

The model used was a cylinder with a diameter of 60mm and a height of 20mm.

Printer: Ultimaker 3

Material: Ultimaker red PLA

Settings:

• printing temperature 200 degrees
  
• wall printing speed 120mm/s
  
• layer height 0.25mm
  
• wall line count 1
  
• min layer time none
  
• no infill, top and bottom layers
  
• force retraction at every layer
  
• retraction length 6.5mm
  
• retraction speed 25mm/s
  

If there is interest, I can also share the g-code and cura project files.

@rebekah_harper Compared to the UM2 feeder the stepper motor requires to turn faster with Bondtech DDG (311 steps per mm). Compared to the UM2+ feeder (369 steps per mm) the stepper motor turns slightly slower.

The Bondtech(QR and DDG), due to the dual drive gears, is able to push the filament with more force. Therefore printing with a 0.15mm nozzle should benefit, I believe.

Please keep in mind that printing with a 0.15mm nozzle and 2.85mm filament has limitations.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Guest
Edit: Added the layer height

[mendells 55]

120 mm/s is great! Currently I'm using colorfabb nGen and I start to see under extrusion around 80 mm/s at 0.10 mm layer heights. If you wouldn't mind sharing the gcode I'd like to give it a try on our printers just for comparison sake.

[rebekah_harper 60]

@mendells Sure!

The model used was a cylinder with a diameter of 60mm and a height of 20mm.

Printer: Ultimaker 3

Material: Ultimaker red PLA

Settings:

• printing temperature 200 degrees
  
• wall printing speed 120mm/s
  
• layer height 0.25mm
  
• wall line count 1
  
• min layer time none
  
• no infill, top and bottom layers
  
• force retraction at every layer
  
• retraction length 6.5mm
  
• retraction speed 25mm/s
  

If there is interest, I can also share the g-code and cura project files.

@rebekah_harper Compared to the UM2 feeder the stepper motor requires to turn faster with Bondtech DDG (311 steps per mm). Compared to the UM2+ feeder (369 steps per mm) the stepper motor turns slightly slower.

The Bondtech(QR and DDG), due to the dual drive gears, is able to push the filament with more force. Therefore printing with a 0.15mm nozzle should benefit, I believe.

Please keep in mind that printing with a 0.15mm nozzle and 2.85mm filament has limitations.

Thank you.

I am aware of the limitations, just want to allow for some play in the settings.

I will consider changing things around on both the UM2+ and the UM3

who in the UK is an authorised dealer for these as I couldn't see them on 3dSolex's web shop.

many thanks

Rebekah

[mendells 55]

@cjs If you get a chance could you print this mini speed test? I've included the gcode in the download section.

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/mini-speed-test

Edit: Hold on, I just realized my acceleration settings were limiting the speed. :/

Edit: OK its fixed now.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Guest

[cjs 34]

@rebekah_harper I think the UK Bondtech reseller is Emvio Engineering but they don't offer the upgrade yet. Therefore the best way is probably to buy it from Bondtech directly: http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/extruders/ddg-extruder_ultimaker2_en.html

@mendells I currently don't have the time to print your test but I asked Martin and he will print it for you later today :-)

Will be uploading the files tonight. Is there a way to upload them to this forum?

Regarding the testprints I did. The main focus wasn't really on the speed as with acceleration you may never hit the speeds. I mainly wanted to showcase that the Upgrade outperforms the factory feeder.

[rebekah_harper 60]

hiya,

all sounds good. I was wondering how the dual drive works. I can see how one of the gears is driven by the stepper through the back but the other I can't see how it's done.

[bondtech 25]

So the test Gcode @Mendells provided is tested on our UM2 Extended printer (Upgraded to a 2+) Upgraded with DDG Extruder, PLA material.

This printer normally prints black ABS so there are some small streaks of black ABS in the print but it finished ok without any underextrusion.

@rebekah_harper this is how our DualDrive technology works: (old movie but still)

[mendells 55]

@bondtech Thanks for running that test! It looks much better than the one I ran using the stock UM2+ feeder. I started seeing pretty severe under extrusion around 80mm/s.

[navigator 24]

who in the UK is an authorised dealer for these as I couldn't see them on 3dSolex's web shop.

many thanks

Rebekah

 

I just ordered 2 over the weekend direct from bondtech and they shipped Monday and arrived today (Wednesday) - very quick delivery and impressed by the build quality

As cjs recommended, just get them direct.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Guest

[rebekah_harper 60]

 

who in the UK is an authorised dealer for these as I couldn't see them on 3dSolex's web shop.

many thanks

Rebekah

 

I just ordered 2 over the weekend direct from bondtech and they shipped Monday and arrived today (Wednesday) - very quick delivery and impressed by the build quality

As cjs recommended, just get them direct.

 

thanks, sounds good to me.

don't think I can get away with getting 3 in one go lol. the other half may not see it in the same way as I do. :(

I am keen to see the results for my jobs I need to do.

[izzy 33]

I have been running with a Bondtech QR for over a year now and it’s excellent. I was testing a CF filament and the origional feeder was struggling to grip it due to the Filaments surface finish, the QR managed it easily. As well as the CF filament it also handled all the others easily including some very flexible filaments, with good PLAs at decent settings it could print the volumetric test peice and manage 10mm3/s which was the maximum I had on the test piece.

[rebekah_harper 60]

so the difference between the QR and the DDG apart from the obvious is the Steps/mm?

as they are universal, could 2 QR's be fitted to the UM3?