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Bossler

UM ABS & UM PVA?

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I've seen that the combination of UM ABS & UM PVA ist "experimental".

So, what tips can be given to start experimenting with this combination?

My experience so far is that with ABS & PVA it helps to increase temperature -

but maybe there are more factors to take into account?

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I played with it. I got it to work a bit, but not really. And, I do not like ABS at all, so that was a short lived excursion. Still have three rolls of the stuff that I will probably never use.

 

But, the biggest issue with ABS is the tendency to warp and thus pull away from the PVA relentlessly. I got it to work a bit by using what I would call anchor points. Tiny bits of faux support that kept a long part of the model from being too long and warping much.

Sorta like this:

__________________________________________________________ <-----long part

^      ^             ^         ^         ^         ^            ^           ^             ^   <----Anchors of ABS faux support to hold ABS part down.

 

Why not just try their new breakaway material for a part like that? It is rated for ABS and a few others.

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Well, breakaway-support is "in delivery" and I'll try it.

 

Reg. the idea you described:

so you include the faux support in your design, right?

 

Reg. why ABS:

The part in question is a handle for a lid of a pan.

So it will be exposed to higher temps and the dishwasher as well.

Also I like the ease of polishing ABS with acetone;-)

 

There are quite some areas where this part needs support.

Especially the underside (which has a concavity) is hard to free from non-solvable support.

5a6989c263afd_Bildschirmfoto2018-01-25um08_34_08.thumb.png.793902586b60d860ce30e416644b888d.png

 

 

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There are some materials with a higher TG temp than ABS that may be easier to work with.

 

However, I would like to know how this works. That seems a design made for warping.

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While I do not print with ABS, I did get two spools of Breakaway for materials that really do not play well with PVA. Trouble is that many designs would be destroyed by the tugging of the breakaway due to thin, pokey parts.....I make strange things......I will have to look into Bex's material suggestion also.

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1 hour ago, kmanstudios said:

There are some materials with a higher TG temp than ABS that may be easier to work with.

 

However, I would like to know how this works. That seems a design made for warping.

 

Well, I did print this thing already (on the R3D N2) successfully without warping issues.

Unfortunately I did have to print the support with ABS as well and the result did not really look good.

That's why I try to find another way to print is with "decent" surface quality.

 

What alternatives do you have in mind?

One material I know is BioFila PowR, that easily can outperform ABS reg. temp. and strength plus is easy to print (not sure about that on the UM3, will test).

BioFila is made by "TwoBears" which is a small german company - not shure whether that is sold "around the world" already.

 

Aquasolve reads promising and seems to be relatively cheap.

Curious to learn more about it.

Edited by Bossler

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I took a quick look at a search and did not find any tech specs on that material.

 

But, for the most part you should look at printing temps and buildplate temps. Abrasiveness also plays into that, but that is mostly specialty filaments like brass fill, glow in the dark, etc.

 

As long as the printing and buildplate temps are within spec of the Ultimaker, I do not see any reason to not try to print with it.

 

I do like PC filament for really strong stuff. Although it tends to warp as badly as ABS, it does not delaminate as badly and it also handles overhangs like a champ. One of my fave hard materials.

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Maybe it is also an option to print the disks and column separately, and glue them together? This might give a better surface quality and go faster than printing with support. In that case, design some guidance into the parts, so they line-up correctly.

 

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Just now, geert_2 said:

Maybe it is also an option to print the disks and column separately, and glue them together? This might give a better surface quality and go faster than printing with support. In that case, design some guidance into the parts, so they line-up correctly.

 

I think this is a spiffy idea.....:+1:

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Agree, I could design it in two parts and that would possibly be easier to print.

But due to the "customers request" (don't argue with mother;-) it should be a round knob so it will still require support.

Let's see how well the breakaway-support works here.

 

Currently I am more concerned about the noise the UM3 makes...

This strange knocking sounds, and the frequent beeping (seems to be from Z-Hops) -

annoying...

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You will hear beeping type of sounds for retractions and Z-Hops. Knocking sounds can be from a few sources such as quick motions that occur when doing tight infill areas or such. You can also hear some knocking sounds from the active leveling at the beginning as well.

 

I look at it this way: It is like having a newborn.....you will soon learn the good cries and the problem cries. I am so attuned to the noises my machine(s) make that I can be woken up when something goes awry.

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Ah, active leveling, okay... but that's really loud...

And yes, it went less noisy the longer the print went.

 

The benchy came out quite well, some details looked better then the one I printed w. the R3D N2

but overall the print quality is relatively equal.

Maybe the UM3 is a little bit better with the overhangs, it seems. 

But after all it is also a different PLA.

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On 25/01/2018 at 9:38 AM, kmanstudios said:

That seems a design made for warping.

well it is round, that is better than square ;)

 

On 25/01/2018 at 11:04 AM, Bossler said:

Well, I did print this thing already (on the R3D N2) successfully without warping issues.

 

That ABS warps is a characteristic of the material. If it did not warp in the R3D perhaps they used an ABS blend? (plus, there are a lot of different ABS's on the market). 

Preventing it from cooling down too fast helps, and for that we have a door for the Ultimaker :) (or use something you have laying around to block out a draft or heat escape). 

I do not recommend closing off the top. 

 

As an alternative for ABS, you could also look at PC or CPE+?

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I did print it already, but used BioFila PowR together with BVOH.

Printed like a dream!

 

PowR is a relatively new stuff from "TwoBears". 

They state it some PLA-derivate that is stable up to 130°C... Guess that even beats PC and CPE+, right?

 

I am not sure if the PowR-Material really is that good but I did put the printed part into boiling water for ~5 minutes it it came out undamaged and still hard.

Plus the surface quality of prints with tha material is quite good.

 

I do have the advanced printing kit so I even have the "door" (for my taste, the build quality of the "door" is a bit on the cheap side but it does the trick).

But at current I do have other things lined up to be printed so did not yet test ABS with the UM3e.

Within the R3D I used two different brands of ABS. Both went fine so far regarding warping - if you get the Z-gap set well,

ABS sticks really good to the buildtak-surface I used with the R3D.

In fact I have one glas plate for the UM3e already coated with buildtak for ABS;-)

But I'll first try it with my new "best-print-bed-sticking"-friend 3DLac...

 

Currently my biggest issue is the dimensional accuracy of the prints.

Holes too small, prints too big...

Is the common method to cope with that adjusting flow in Cura or what other ways do you use here?

 

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I believe holes are in general/always on the small side due to the expansion of filament towards the inside of a hole. The easiest / fastest method would be to 'post process' your print and use a drill to make them your preferred size. (I can imagine you may not want to do this, because that is what you have a 3D printer for. But it is a fast solution). Alternatively, you could make the holes in your 3D model slightly bigger, because I think they are always approximately the same set amount too small (filament expansion). 

How much too big are your prints?

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With the silver UM PLA that came with the printer I did have a +1% deviation on all axis, including Z. So 20mm turn out to be 20,2mm.

Which does not seem to be much but can be quite annoying when two parts should fit together.

 

With the before mentioned BioFila PowR I get quite decent fitting prints, just holes - especially with threads -
remain a bit of a problem.

 

Because I like to use printed threads it is not so easy to adjust the size of the holes.

For things that need to fit together I always use tolerances when constructing things as one should do.

 

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On 1/25/2018 at 2:10 PM, Bossler said:

Ah, active leveling, okay... but that's really loud...

And yes, it went less noisy the longer the print went.

This is an interesting point for me as until I got my UM3X, I had never been around a 3D printer and had no idea what would be considered odd or loud. I also have a few hearing issues, so that taints the perception a bit.

 

But I wonder what other printers sound like now. ;)

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10 minutes ago, kmanstudios said:

I wonder how much is machine and how much is filament regarding shrinking or expansion. Please note, I have no idea. Just wondering.

 

Certainly it is material dependent, yes.

That's why I'd like to understand how to deal with it.

 

On the R3D I did first calibrate the extruder-steps/mm (which requires to send Gcode-commands directly to the printer)

and the corrected the flow afterwards for the different filaments.

 

Regarding the sound - I can only say the R3D N2 was way less noisy.

But it does have a full enclosure...

Edited by Bossler
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I will be following your excursions. So far,99% of my prints have been more about artsy crap and not engineering stuff. There have been a few things I have been working with intuitively, but nothing concrete that could help anybody.

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