Ultimaker S5 | impressions & opinions

[asb 7]

57 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

I guess the reason for it is, that you can easily brick your printer when modifying JSON files.

 

Once more: yes, if it is undocumented.

No, if it is properly documented.

And if a manufacturer is willing to make it failsafe, he can provide a validating user interface.

 

The same applies for other unsupported "features" like the configuration of a static IP address or the disclosure of the network devices MAC address.

 

This has been discussed before. Some people need to use static IP addresses, some people need the MAC address of a network device. And everybody who needs dimensionally precise prints needs to calibrate the steps values. That's the basic calibration. Everything Ultimaker is sharing (in private) is tinkering on optimization parameters. I think that's pretty pointless if the basic ex factory calibration is crap. And the way our S5 was calibrated ex factory was pretty much as bad as the our UM3 Extended last year - unusable for items like gears. If you have tried to print engineered objects in materials like nylon you know what I am talking about.

 

57 minutes ago, Smithy said:

[…] I assume it is hard to support a Linux application […]

 

Linux - or at least one or two of the major distributions - is as hard to support as any other operating system. I guess you are aware how many Windows versions are out in the wild?

 

But that's not the point.

Ultimaker claims to support Linux and states system requirements.

 

I am complaining that Ultimaker lacks the willingness to listen to customers who paid them several thousend Euros.

They do not take Linux support seriously. Otherwise the PPA would be supported, like the one operated by Lulzbot. It is very well possible, if you take your customers serious. What Ultimaker does is take the money. But not much more.

 

De facto refusing to support a "supported" software environment it is actually a breach of trust.

Claiming networking support and refusing to support the stated system requirements is another breach of trust.

Selling a product with an aluminum build plate and not keeping a promise is yet another breach of trust.

[Shadowman 53]

29 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

 

For me it is easy to explain, I bought the S5, not because of the aluminum plate, I bought it because of the build volume and the possibility to print abrasive materials. Honestly, I got noticed about the aluminum plate first, after unboxing 🙂 - that's maybe the reason why I don't see it that "hard" or unacceptable as others. 

 

I can also understand that some are disappointed about the end of the aluminum plate, especially if this was the only reason why they decided to buy the printer. But I still believe it was better to say stop now, than waiting for a product that cannot be mass produced as expected and which probably makes more problems than the glass plate. 

 

We all know that it was in the marketing channels that this will be a unique feature of the S5 and even because of that, I have full respect for the decision Ultimaker made. They truly believed that they can accomplish the production and now as they cannot, they are honest enough with the coming out and try to find individual solutions for customers which are not happy with a second glass plate. So, in my opinion, we should be fair and give them the time and the chance to compensate for this issue. 

 

 

Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but this combination is working great and also with different brands of materials. UM materials and print heads are detected by Cura and you can print without modifying any setting. When you try to use Simplfy3D for example with your S5, then you see what you really have with Cura and how perfectly Cura works with the Ultimaker printers.

 

Last but not least I have a wish for 2019, that we all will act objective and fair. Everyone should get a chance to make things better next time, also Ultimaker, and with all disappointment, we should not forget, that they have built and build hopefully also in the future great workhorses for our businesses and hobby activities.

Smithy 

 

I do understand why some things such as the aluminum build plate are not of great concern to you but respectfully I ask that you not dimish the value it has to others; including myself.

 

To clarify; my comment about Cura; my attempt was to make clear that it is Ultimaker’s software; supported, maintained, and bundled with their printers however, as an open source software anyone else can use it. Add to this, those with Ultimaker printers can twist and tweak it “at their own risk” as well as assist if desired with future development of it. 

 

Open source and free when associated with a Ultimaker printer does not mean no responsibility.

 

Many folks, including Ultimaker, continue to imply that because it is open source add free that no one should complain; this is both wrong and frankly; laughable.

 

Like you; I successfully use the Ultimaker created material profiles and in my case with both  Ultimaker’s hardware and private labeled NFC filament and by and large have had nice consistent prints. 

 

To be very clear; I like the Ultimaker S5 printer however, I don’t like that I have not received that which I paid for.

 

A fairly simple concept.

[Smithy 1,144]

11 hours ago, asb said:

De facto refusing to support a "supported" software environment it is actually a breach of trust.

Claiming networking support and refusing to support the stated system requirements is another breach of trust.

Selling a product with an aluminum build plate and not keeping a promise is yet another breach of trust.

 

If I would be so disappointed about a company or a printer, I would sell it again and look for a company, brand, printer which fits all my needs I have regarding support, software, calibration and so on. It makes no sense, in my opinion, to work with a printer which is so annoying. Thousands of customers are happy with the S5 and achieve amazing results out of the box with it, but expectations can be different and maybe the printer is not for everyone.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[Smithy 1,144]

11 hours ago, Shadowman said:

I do understand why some things such as the aluminum build plate are not of great concern to you but respectfully I ask that you not dimish the value it has to others; including myself.

 

Shadowman,

Just for my interest, what do you expect of the aluminum plate and for what needs have you planned to use it? Is it the hoped easier handling of materials which need some "help" to adhere to the plate and to avoid the additional use of adhesion sheets, spray or something else?

 

[RudydG 62]

My setup of the S5, i found a very nice cabinet with wheels, Ikea https://www.ikea.com/be/nl/producten/opbergmeubelen/ladeblokken-bureauopbergers/bekant-opbergmeubel-op-wielen-draadwerk-wit-spr-09282547/

Suits me very well, easy acces because you can turn the cabinet to acces the back of the printer, and the right height (deskheight is to low, this is 1mtr, ideal!!)

At the backside, i have the "normal" spool attachement, and also a drybox for the moisture sensitive filament.

At this moment i am using the last of a roll breakaway, and a roll of Polymax Pla (=tough pla)

 

.

[Smithy 1,144]

Very nice! I have mine too on an Ikea "Alex" cabinet, but it is lower than yours. I think higher is better, so maybe I should try your cabinet.

The Polybox mount is also a nice idea. I will get mine next week (hopefully) and then I have to find a place. So mounting on the back is not bad, better than putting it on the floor.

 

Thanks for sharing the pictures!

[Brulti 177]

On 12/29/2018 at 1:05 AM, asb said:

 

Once more: yes, if it is undocumented.

No, if it is properly documented.

And if a manufacturer is willing to make it failsafe, he can provide a validating user interface.

 

Those three sentences are so absolutely, completely and irremediably wrong, up to a point that it pains me to read them.

 

If there is one thing I learned after nearly 15 years of work in customer-related positions and in retail, it is that, no matter how well documented something is, or how failsafe you think you made your product, some fool will find a way to break it in ways that aren't supposed to be possible. Or will do something that is explicitly marked as 'DO NOT DO THIS!' on the documentation with big red flashing lights, because they didn't read it, skimmed through the documentation or something alike. And, as Murphy's Law would have it, the more detailed your documentation, the more people will break your product. Then they'll say that they aren't at fault, that the documentation wasn't clear enough.

 

Let me share some personal experience: I sold mobile phones for years in a small shop. Back before the advent of smartphones and touchscreens, phones used to have a pretty extensive documentation; thick booklets included in the package, sometimes as thick or thicker than the phone itself. Many of those documentations also showed to the users, using pictures on the very first five pages or so, how to open the phone, place the sim card (and the memory card if there was a slot for it), battery, and then close it back.

 

I've lost count of the number of people who managed to damage their phone right after buying it by trying to put the sim card or battery the wrong way, or place the sim card into the memory card slot, even though most memory cards were maybe a quarter the size of a sim card and not the same shape anyway. It wouldn't fit, then they would use their strength to force it in because they cannot be wrong, obviously, and end breaking something and come back to complain. And even when shown the nice clear pictures in the instruction booklet, they would complain that the pictures and text aren't clear enough, and ask for a refund or an exchange since, obviously, it's not their fault but ours as reseller or the manufacturer's for not being clear enough.

 

So, while I have absolutely no idea what SSH is or means or what it is used for, if giving access to it is opening the door to potentially bricking the printers, then I fully understand why UM is saving themselves the headaches by not supporting it. You can never make anything failsafe, no matter how detailed and clear and concise your documentation is.

 

Quote

And the way our S5 was calibrated ex factory was pretty much as bad as the our UM3 Extended last year - unusable for items like gears. If you have tried to print engineered objects in materials like nylon you know what I am talking about.

 

I printed many engineered objects in Nylon, and other materials, on my UM3E since I got it last year, I never once even had to calibrate the steps, and my customers have always been very happy with the results. I printed a couple of prototypes and a handful of parts for use, including some things for the engine of a car or a motorbike, I don't remember exactly, and the customer told me that they fit nicely in the engine. Maybe you got unlucky and had the one in a million or so printer that wasn't calibrated right?

On 12/29/2018 at 1:05 AM, asb said:

I am complaining that Ultimaker lacks the willingness to listen to customers who paid them several thousend Euros.

They do not take Linux support seriously. Otherwise the PPA would be supported, like the one operated by Lulzbot. It is very well possible, if you take your customers serious. What Ultimaker does is take the money. But not much more.

 

That they choose to only provide support for the appimage and not the PPA is their right. That decision certainly has valid grounds for UM and was probably taken after a lengthy analysis by the people in charge at UM. Besides, the fact that they do not support versions of their open source software that isn't produced by themselves seems very normal to me. I don't see why they would provide support for the PPA made by Lulzbot since Lulzbot isn't part or related to UM in anyway. Or even to a version of the program done by an employee on their free time, since that version never went through the thorough internal process of testing and vetting and such.

 

I disagree that UM does not have the willingness to listen to their customers. We have this forum where we can talk to them, and they usually reply with speed and efficiency, reaching out to people who post complaints or troubles here in a very short time usually. SandervG and a handful of others from the company are very active here, and questions and comments are forwarded to the relevant people inside the company, with some of them logging in to give the answers and other replying through SandervG.

 

Of course, sometimes the answer or reaction from UM isn't what we expect or what we would like. But they are here, they do listen to us, and I would say that I know very little companies with such an active team, or even companies who have gone to the length of putting up a forum such as this one for their users and customers.

 

@RudydG I concur with Smithy: that is a very nice set-up you have! ^^

Edited December 30, 2018 by Brulti

[PaulK 14]

This is my impressions more of the system, i.e. Cura (using 4 beta), filament and printer.

 

Me: Hobbiest who may have lost his mind. Writes software for a coupla or three or so decades. Fair at making things.

 

Background: Built a MakerFarm Pegasus (prusa-style design) 2 years ago. Spent the last two years rebuilding it and upgrading it with things like auto-leveling, better extruder/hot-end, etc. It is fully enclosed. I use Simplify3D and OctoPrint with it. Balance of ABS and PLA, more ABS then PLA. That printer prints ABS fairly effortlessly (PEI on glass bed)

 

Goal with S5: Bigger. Dual extrusion (really want water soluble supports). Very importantly: Spend more time on the item being printed, less time of my time on the process. I print almost all one-offs, often with drastically different requirements re: quality, toughness, etc.

 

I've run maybe a couple of reels, so early going. PLA/PVA and CPE only so far, intend to run just about everything eventually 🙂

 

Impressions:

- The turnkey aspect is fantastic. I go from Fusion 360 -> Cura -> Print effortlessly and without disturbing my flow by fiddling with stuff. I love this. When Cura 4 gets octoprint support, I'll be switching from Simplify3D for that one too so I can replicate that flow, even though it means re-building a couple of profiles.

- The print quality is fantastic. Out of the box, it was amazing. My other printer isn't crap, but this was a step above. I tried a D&D miniature (of course I play) with a 0.25 nozzle and holy crap, more then good enough.

- The nozzle system (well print core) is way better than expected. I thought it was overpriced, but the ability to switch nozzles quickly and reliably makes switching nozzles print-to-print to be absolutely feasible. It is way too much effort on other printers for anything other then production use. This is revolutionary for printing one-off stuff.

- The auto bed-leveling is first-rate and pretty quick.

- The system can be buggy. I know Cura is beta. I have to reboot the printer for Cura and/or restart cura too often for cura to see it. I have it set with a manual IP address too; before that, it was a disaster. Lots of other little bugs; nothing show-stopper, but I'm hoping  that part gets better.

- The lack of built in dry-box is, IMO, a serious mistake. Way too much filament is moisture sensitive and if you aren't putting through a reel a day, it can get waterlogged too easily (or even on a long print). I've shown that even ABS can be water affected.

- The mechanics are, IMO, a little underwhelming for the price point.

- My machine has gotten a click on movement. I can get rid of it, but it seems to be whack-a-mole. This shouldn't be

- Some of the fans are kinda noisy. Looking at the one in the shroud, its a sunon, if it is a magnetic levitating sunon they are super quiet, but some fan in there is noisy as f***. I hate fan noise 🙂 Over all though, the printer is very quiet.

- Really stiff filaments, like PVA, are a serious PITA to get into the extruder for loading.

- The ultimaker filament selection is  ok, but not fabulous. Colors are kinda ick. White isn't very white, which really irritates me 🙂. It is really great to be able to use 3rd party though (well, a show-stopper to be honest, but ultimaker seems to fairly actively promote it and not use oddball reel sizes, etc like some, or claim you invalidate your warranty)

- I love the NFC. It *really* helps keep down errors in running a print with the wrong material, especially when there is a queue. I also hate that they haven't provided docs (or possibly the ability?) to slap NFC on my own reels. Looking at the API, looks like I could POST a new material with a GUID, but figuring out how to format my NFC chips would be a rev-eng exercise. Would be nice to have a white paper on it. Also, back to the dry-box problem, I need to move the reader anyway off the machine. So, some  help here Ultimaker. I don't want to rev-eng that stuff, there is more interesting things to rev-eng out  there 🙂 Also, I'm trying to spend less time on the printer.

- Its slow. OK, I know that quality thing is, in part, due to running slow, but a "sloppy" profile would be nice. Also, "engineering" profile that favors strength and dimensional accuracy would be nice. I've printed a relatively large item with a 0.8 nozzle and it did go pretty quick I'll admit.

- Al build plate. Enough said 🙂 I really like the prusa bendable PEI thing though....

- There are some problem scenarios I'd like to see more explicitly described, like what happens if filament runs out, and how I'd load more to continue the print (or is that possible? it isn't obvious)

- Patents, yadda yadda, but it should be fully enclosed (possibly with powered ventilation for filaments that don't want a hot environment). Mine is in a fairly dusty environment and even that part would justify a top.

 

That's all in my brain dump for now. Although I listed more cons then pros, I absolutely love this printer and would recommend it to anyone whose budget can stand and/or justify it.

 

[Smithy 1,144]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences!

[asb 7]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:48 PM, Brulti said:

So, while I have absolutely no idea what SSH is or means or what it is used for, if giving access to it is opening the door to potentially bricking the printers, then I fully understand why UM is saving themselves the headaches by not supporting it.

 

It would help if you'd read what the issue is before commenting.

So again, you can get the S5 onto a LAN or Wifi network only under a very limited set of conditions. It is not sufficient if your environment meets the documented system requirements. The actual system requirements are nowhere documented. This is bad ony many levels, and it is dishonest.

Among the limitations of Ultimakers networking support is the lack of an interface to set up a static IP address. Your smartphone and even your $10 home router have such interfaces and you can not brick your smartphone by setting up a static IP address.

For people with network environments requiring to disclose the MAC address to the AP or switch, or to use a static IP address, you are forced to use an undocumented development mode. So your choices are: Risk loosing factory warranty by using an undocumented and unsupported feature, or don't use networking. Both are bad choices, and they are caused because Ultimaker does not provide a simple UI to set up a static network config. The S5 is promoted to be a network ready device; one key claim is that it is "designed to connect". This claim is clearly not true, considering that it does not even meet the most basic networking requirements, e.g. having a sticker with the MAC address on the back.

A lot of people have confirmed that the only actually supported setup - DHCP server, dynamic IP address etc. - is a lot less robust than a static networking configuration. That's why Ultimaker is most ignorant by refusing to make this €6,500 product truly network ready.

And by the way, I just checked the resellers which are listed under "Buying options". They all keep advertising the aluminum build plate which is misleading and an obvious reason for revocation. So my guess is that so far Ultimaker has failed to communicate to their distributors and resellers that there will be no aluminum build plate. This is another indicator for ignorance. For sure, a honest company would not encourage misleading advertising.

I also checked with our vendor, and they don't know anything about the unavailable aluminum build plate, either.

[Smithy 1,144]

7 minutes ago, asb said:

or to use a static IP address, you are forced to use an undocumented development mode.

Wrong, the magic is called DHCP address reservation and it is a common practice in networks to assign a static IP address to a client, without setting a static IP address at the client. Every network administrator hates devices with configured static addresses because it is not manageable centrally. And DHCP address reservations are nothing special to professional routers or devices, even the cheapest one is able to do that.

 

So, if you really want, you can set a static IP for your printer without using SSH. If you do not want to follow the advice here, you can, of course, continue to complain about wrong issues.

 

13 minutes ago, asb said:

having a sticker with the MAC address on the back

That's true and would be an improvement to have the MAC address on the back. But it is not a showstopper in most cases, only if your network is restricted on MAC addresses.

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi Asb, thanks again for your input.

A while back I provided you with some instructions to set up a static IP address. Did this work for you?

You are right that this could, or should be documented better. We're working on this, within a larger scope of features we're working on, and in the meantime we hope to help users with instructions like the ones I send to you. If they didn't work, please let me know and we can look into it together. 

 

30 minutes ago, asb said:

And by the way, I just checked the resellers which are listed under "Buying options". They all keep advertising the aluminum build plate which is misleading and an obvious reason for revocation. So my guess is that so far Ultimaker has failed to communicate to their distributors and resellers that there will be no aluminum build plate. This is another indicator for ignorance. For sure, a honest company would not encourage misleading advertising.

I also checked with our vendor, and they don't know anything about the unavailable aluminum build plate, either.

 

Regarding this; can you let me know, via a DM if you want, which resellers have not updated their materials? We've updated our channels, but obviously we can't make the changes for them. If for whatever reason it was not changed, we would like to reach to them and see if we can help. It is important for everyone that this is clear, and no longer promoted. 

 

Hope this helps. 

[Brulti 177]

33 minutes ago, asb said:

It would help if you'd read what the issue is before commenting.

 

I know what the issue is, thank you very much. But you obviously didn't read anything beyond that single thing that is of interest to you. Giving access to the SSH would allow people to set up a static IP address, but it would also allow them to perform other modifications to the JSON files, which are core files for the 'OS' of the printer, if I got that right, modifications that could result in a bricked printer. Thus why UM isn't supporting it or even documenting it.

 

Besides, there are other ways to set up a static IP address, as mentioned by Smithy and SandervG. Why don't you try them instead of complaining?

[ultiarjan 1,223]

8 hours ago, PaulK said:

Also, "engineering" profile that favors strength and dimensional accuracy would be nice.

 

Many have asked for this before, ever since the launch of the UM3, but the rumour is that now Ultimaker is working on it.....

[ultiarjan 1,223]

8 hours ago, PaulK said:

- Really stiff filaments, like PVA, are a serious PITA to get into the extruder for loading.

 

I usually cut the filament end at a 45deg angle and straighten the tip a bit, then it's pretty easy imho

[zungara 10]

4 hours ago, Smithy said:

Wrong, the magic is called DHCP address reservation and it is a common practice in networks to assign a static IP address to a client, without setting a static IP address at the client. Every network administrator hates devices with configured static addresses because it is not manageable centrally. And DHCP address reservations are nothing special to professional routers or devices, even the cheapest one is able to do that.

 

So, if you really want, you can set a static IP for your printer without using SSH. If you do not want to follow the advice here, you can, of course, continue to complain about wrong issues.

 

That's true and would be an improvement to have the MAC address on the back. But it is not a showstopper in most cases, only if your network is restricted on MAC addresses.

 

Sorry Smithy I think you are not right. 3d printing is my hobby but not my work. I am working for Telekom in Germany and I am one of the last level support for technical VPN consulting in my company. I am planing and designing VPN for big companies witch have a lot of location all over the world. Sometime i have to plan and design more than 1000 locations. And of course an IP address concept is mandatory. DHCP is mostly not the only sulution you will use. Static IP- addresses will keep your network simple and is often used. In general you will find a mix of static or dynamic addresses. It depend on the customer needs. And if customer has desided not to use DHCP than it is not possible and will not be possible for one device.  In general you have to say Static IP address is nothing spezial. Not supporting this old generic function as standard feature is a little bit creasy and shows that the developer (sorry Ultimaker team) not really have an idea how professional networking will work. But on the other side the Ultimaker Team have a lot of experience of 3d printing :-)

 

 

[PaulK 14]

On 1/3/2019 at 7:21 AM, ultiarjan said:

 

I usually cut the filament end at a 45deg angle and straighten the tip a bit, then it's pretty easy imho

 

This has worked out amazingly well. It should be in the docs, it makes life much easier. It's almost obvious once you see it, but when you are used to a different extruder, it isn't so obvious.

[asb 7]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:18 AM, SandervG said:

[…] can you let me know […] which resellers have not updated their materials?

 

None of the vendors/distributors I get listed at Buying options mentions that there will not be an aluminum build plate.

The only difference between these resellers is if they advertise that the aluminum build plate will be shipped free of charge to existing S5 owners or if it will be an add-on accessory.

 

 

 

 

 

That's only the official resellers ultimaker.com. If you look at the numerous other vendors, it's exactly the same. They all keep advertising the aluminum build plate.

[Shadowman 53]

46 minutes ago, asb said:

 

None of the vendors/distributors I get listed at Buying options mentions that there will not be an aluminum build plate.

The only difference between these resellers is if they advertise that the aluminum build plate will be shipped free of charge to existing S5 owners or if it will be an add-on accessory.

 

 

 

 

 

That's only the official resellers ultimaker.com. If you look at the numerous other vendors, it's exactly the same. They all keep advertising the aluminum build plate.

Hi asb

 

I shared the same with SandervG a couple days ago after he asked you for specific distributors still soliciting the aluminum build plate.

 

An associate of mine made a couple calls to different distributors and was told of the benefits of the unique aluminum build plate as associated with the Ultimaker S5.

 

Thank you asb for sharing your findings.

 

Takes care.

 

 

[PaulK 14]

One quibble I have is with the display. At the height my machine is located at, 85 cm, the display is quite hard to read when close enough to operate it without squatting a little. Ultimate, the display should hinge (or be a super expensive very wide angle viewing one 🙂 ), but in the shorter term some different choices in colour could likely help a lot. White text on grey buttons seems like a particularly bad choice when contrast drops off a lot due to off-angle viewing.

[SandervG 1,521]

Thanks for the information. Following your findings I also did some more research and alerted our channel managers to reach out to our partners and see if they need any extra help to update their resources. 

[Carla_Birch 116]

I have to say goprint3d.co.uk where i got my S5 from was real good and they sent me a email like the next day after official post and a postal letter also about the build plate.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Carla_Birch

[Bigbrit 8]

Hey guys.

 

Long time since I have been on here as (I got quite frustrated with the forum) but im back to say some of the gripes I had with the S5 have been solved over the last two firmware updates.  The LED's are now sufficiently dim enough on low (still no off function - not sure why that is so hard to implement) and the printer now doesn't show as offline in Cura even when it is online so the workflow has been improved greatly.  Thank you to Ultimaker for solving those issues.

 

Sad to hear that the Aluminium build plate is now scrapped, I wasn't aware it was coming with one originally at the point of sale so I am not too bothered (what would aluminium offer over glass?)  I had the email to say that a second glass build plate would be sent instead which is appreciated (still havent received mine?) but I wanted to ask why ultimaker didn't consider doing a PEI plate instead? something that would offer a textured surface like the plate that you can get with the Prusa?

Edited January 9, 2019 by Bigbrit

[SandervG 1,521]

Happy to see you are back, and happy to see the new firmware has been good for you 🙂

 

1 hour ago, Bigbrit said:

still no off function

That will most likely be in the next release though, so perhaps another thing to look forward too.

 

1 hour ago, Bigbrit said:

but I wanted to ask why ultimaker didn't consider doing a PEI plate instead

Perhaps we did consider, I'm not sure. In any case, at some point the decision was based to go for an aluminum bed instead of any of the alternatives. Unfortunately, as you read in your email and perhaps here as well, that didn't make it to a release. I'll ask if we can release any of those details, but I can't promise that will happen. 

 

Unless I'm mistaken, in the email there was mention that before the end of Q1 (March), everyone should have received their additional glass plates. This doesn't mean all glass plates will be sent in that very last week, but it will be processed in batches I believe. 

[Bigbrit 8]

Maybe I spoke too soon.  The LED's are fixed at current brightness setting and the slider is not changing the setting right now, I have not observed that before