kmanstudios 1,120
What slicer are you talking about?
This is the definition of standby temp, which I read as the same as your original assumption: When not in use, this is the temp it is waiting at.
On 5/12/2018 at 7:23 AM, ultiarjan said:I find increasing the prime tower thickness will increase it's reliability;
This works as long as the ratio of the thickness and the size lets the individual circles touch and form a solid structure.
There's a density calculation which would be beneficial if it were done here. Adding a lot of "Prime Tower Purge Volume", can help here, just letting stuff get up to temp.
On 5/12/2018 at 2:45 AM, kmanstudios said:What slicer are you talking about?
This is the definition of standby temp, which I read as the same as your original assumption: When not in use, this is the temp it is waiting at.
There are 3 temperatures per nozzle that are used, four counting first layer:
Ext# Color Print Standby Lowest Starts A Black 205 202 190 <=195 (Set 205) B Blue 192 195 177 ~188 (set 192)
Notes:
Support still printing at 177 setpoint
Ext B Sitting/Set at 182/182 when not printing
Sets new temp (195), immediate prints
Sets temp to 177, keeps printing.
Switches set temps, immediately prints on unheated ExtA
The interesting bit is the temperature is proactively set to (what I assume is) 15 degrees below "Standby".
I really like the idea of a "Standby" temp as well as a "start printing at" temp. But as best I can tell I can't get to those. What I CAN say is that whatever is going on, I see a lot of extruder-feeding happening when the nozzle temperature is well below extrusion temperature.
Most of the failed Purge Towers and Ooze Shields happen when they are printed at the Standby temperature instead of at the Print temperature. If the structures were more robust, it would likely be ok. But given they aren't, waiting for the right temps (AT the tower, not AT the part!!!!) would go a long way.
Gcode Line# Command Extduer Temp 11 M109 A S210 12 M109 B S189 3044 M109 B S195 4671 M109 A S195 4672 M104 B S182 4678 M104 A S205 5025 M104 A S190 6071 M109 B S182 6072 M104 A S195 6077 M104 B S192 6527 M104 B S177 7021 M109 A S195 7022 M104 B S182 8168 M109 B S182 9121 M109 A S195 10263 M109 B S182 10264 M104 A S195 10269 M104 B S192 10839 M104 B S177 11274 M109 A S195 11275 M104 B S182 11280 M104 A S205 11594 M104 A S190 12566 M109 B S182 12567 M104 A S195 12572 M104 B S192 13260 M104 B S177 13675 M109 A S195 13676 M104 B S182 13681 M104 A S205 13893 M104 A S190 14867 M109 B S182 14868 M104 A S195 14873 M104 B S192 15371 M104 B S177 15792 M109 A S195 15793 M104 B S182 15797 M104 A S205 15975 M104 A S190 16851 M109 B S182 16852 M104 A S195 16861 M104 B S192 17618 M104 B S177 18013 M109 A S195 18014 M104 B S182 18023 M104 A S205 18201 M104 A S190 18823 M109 B S182 18824 M104 A S195 18833 M104 B S192 19605 M104 B S177 19895 M109 A S195 19896 M104 B S182 19906 M104 A S205
I pulled all the temperature change lines from my g-code, which repeats:
11280 M104 A S205 11594 M104 A S190 12566 M109 B S182 12567 M104 A S195 12572 M104 B S192 13260 M104 B S177 13675 M109 A S195 13676 M104 B S182
A Print Temp
A (Print-15)
B Standby
A Standby
B Print Temp
B (Standby - 15)
A Standby Temp
B Standby Temp
At minimum I see a difference, ExtA uses Print-15, ExtB uses Standby-15
I'm going to generate some gcode with less-ambiguous temperatures and repeat this exercise.
kmanstudios 1,120
Yeah, there seems to be a bit of disparity between the wording of the interface and the actual code created. That can present frustrating examples of miscommunications between people such as yourself (Can pinpoint code) and myself (Goes by interface at this time) that can create unneeded agita.
But, I am going to take your word for it and hope someone fromm Team UM's coding department can clarify what is going on.
Also, I just stopped using the priming tower just because it is a time suck and really wastes materials
Gcode Line# Command Extduer Temp 11 M109 A S210 12 M109 B S189 3044 M109 B S195 4671 M109 A S195 4672 M104 B S182 4678 M104 A S205 5025 M104 A S190 6071 M109 B S182 6072 M104 A S195 6077 M104 B S192 6527 M104 B S177 7021 M109 A S195 7022 M104 B S182 8168 M109 B S182 9121 M109 A S195 10263 M109 B S182 10264 M104 A S195 10269 M104 B S192 10839 M104 B S177 11274 M109 A S195 11275 M104 B S182 11280 M104 A S205 11594 M104 A S190 12566 M109 B S182 12567 M104 A S195 12572 M104 B S192 13260 M104 B S177 13675 M109 A S195 13676 M104 B S182 13681 M104 A S205 13893 M104 A S190 14867 M109 B S182 14868 M104 A S195 14873 M104 B S192 15371 M104 B S177 15792 M109 A S195 15793 M104 B S182 15797 M104 A S205 15975 M104 A S190 16851 M109 B S182 16852 M104 A S195 16861 M104 B S192 17618 M104 B S177 18013 M109 A S195 18014 M104 B S182 18023 M104 A S205 18201 M104 A S190 18823 M109 B S182 18824 M104 A S195 18833 M104 B S192 19605 M104 B S177 19895 M109 A S195 19896 M104 B S182 19906 M104 A S205
I pulled all the temperature change lines from my g-code, which repeats:
11280 M104 A S205 11594 M104 A S190 12566 M109 B S182 12567 M104 A S195 12572 M104 B S192 13260 M104 B S177 13675 M109 A S195 13676 M104 B S182
A Print Temp
A (Print-15)
B Standby
A Standby
B Print Temp
B (Standby - 15)
A Standby Temp
B Standby Temp
At minimum I see a difference, ExtA uses Print-15, ExtB uses Standby-15
I'm going to generate some gcode with less-ambiguous temperatures and repeat this exercise.
--------------------------
Trying again: When I use extereme values (temps of 300+) to establish enough seperation between the values to tell "Print Extruder A - 15" apart from "Standby Extruder B + 10", the software changes the values (I think my "350" became "150" in g-code??.
With the following settings:
| Extruder | Material | Material Print | Material Standby | Profile Print | Profile First Layer | Profile Standby |
| A | My PLA | 205 | 193 | 206 | 208 | 196 |
| B | My PVA | 192 | 185 | 191 | 194 | 188 |
21 layers with PVA, 80 layers overall
I get:
| Temp | Times | Ext | State | Offset |
| 165 | 16 | B | Standby | -20 |
| 175 | 10 | B | Standby | -10 |
| 181 | 10 | A | Standby | -10 |
| 188 | 4 | |||
| 190 | 11 | |||
| 194 | 2 | |||
| 195 | 22 | |||
| 196 | 6 | |||
| 205 | 11 | |||
| 208 | 2 |
|
The issue is I just can't tell what's going on. I know it prints a LOT when the temps are set lower than ANY temperature I set anywhere in the program, and I know I get underextrusion from such. I can't tell (ExtA <Material Setting: Print Temp> - 10) apart from (ExtB <Material Setting: Standby Temp> + 10), by the time I have to consider offsets of +/- 20, and to get no overlap, and not hit temps too low (<160?) or too high (>250), I quickly run out of testing options. With some support I'd be happy to keep testing but I just feel I don't have enough to work with.
I'm a LONG time into trying to figure out what is going on, and would love some instructions on how the program works.
Edited by AbeFM
This gets worse the longer I look at it.
I would be VERY happy to help someone knowledgeable debug this, but I feel I don't understand what it is even trying to do well enough.
Most of the variables seem to have hidden constraints, changes aren't always respected, and I don't even know what the behavior SHOULD be, so it's really hard to tell if it is doing what it should.
It SEEMS like there are settings (in the printer profile?) which are hidden, and cover things like temperature offsets, time to turn the extruder temperature down preemptively by. These settings are likely great on an UM, but not cutting it for my E3D based equipment.
Wow.
I guess all those settings are there! Hidden.
I may well be in a LOT better shape than I thought.
kmanstudios 1,120
Oh!!! I thought you had those unhidden. My first action is to unhide everything. And when a new version comes out, I go back and unhide everything again. I am sorry I did not catch that. It would have made things much easier for you.
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1
I'm wondering if it was a case of not having unhidden the options at the same time as having a definition which supported dual extruders.
I'm still having printing issues, but at least they make sense now. Thanks!!!!!!
- 3 months later...
I to have been struggling with the tower also and it breaking off part way up. It seems like such a waste of material and time to increase the size and wall thickness to keep the tower from breaking apart.
kmanstudios I have seen you post a couple times that you do not use the tower. Could you give us a couple hints how you do this. When I lower the temp the nozzle sometime freezes and the retracts do not seem enough.. I know i am missing something in set up or settings. Thanks in advance
kmanstudios 1,120
Lemme see how I can put this and see if it makes sense to you:
- When I get finished with a print, I do sometimes have to knock a few stringy things off with my thumbnail or every once in a while a sharp x-acto
- I get a bit of stringing on the PVA, but I got that with the priming tower anyway
- As long as the stringiness is not going inside the model, I am not worried
- I use pretty much defauolt settings for things like PLA, PVA, TPLA. PETG can get a bit stringy and takes a bit of getting used to setting
That is my basic operation right there. I just got tired of the waste and added time of the priming tower. Every once in a blue moon, I may use an ooze shield, but honestly, I cannot recall the last time I did so.
This is my latest print with no priming tower on the UM3E and after removing the PVA. I did have to remove a few PLA strings.
Edit:
Oh yeah, those are a US quarter and a 2 Euro coin for size relationship. So, thems some kinda teeny fingers and toes.
Edited by kmanstudiosThanks Kman. Are you using the standard .4 nozzle? Just to confirm and the standard ultimaker setting that come in Cura?
kmanstudios 1,120
Yes, 0,4 nozzle and standard Cura settings for most filaments, even if not UM materials. Like the one above was made using Polyalchemy Elixr filament.
I have been experimenting with not using the tower and using Cura's suggested settings. There seems to be a balance of temperature at the start and end of a print session before it switches to the other print core, this determines how much leaks out when the other head is printing. Is this your experience? In addition the length and speed of retraction also seems to make a difference and is different for PVA and PLA. Do you ever modify them?
kmanstudios 1,120
Not really. I agree with the balances they have worked out. The PVA is hard to tell because it is so absorbant, it can change characteristics in a print's duration and that will affect the stringiness. But for the most part, I find the settings pretty good for most colors and materials for the ones they have included.
- 1 month later...
Your printer has the fancy moving nozzles, right? I don't know when UM started doing that (UM3?)
The issue I have is the PVA "strings" end up being "PVA-row-of-holes-in-your-part" once you wash it.
Awesome print, BTW
Edited by AbeFM-
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AbeFM 35
Ah! The "standby" temp is NOT the temp the nozzle sits at when not in use. "Standby" temp is the temp at which it begins printing while heating up to begin a new layer. I'll try increasing that.
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