Forest of Doom

[cloakfiend 995]

Hey guys, way more pics to follow, but here is the beggining of a WIP job based on my favourite front cover of a book ever 'Forest of Doom'.

 

I thought I'd show you the techniques I used to print this really 3d printer unfriendly model and the small but important things you need to do it. I decided not to use PVA due to the reason that i dont need bottom details and can therefore sand it out easily, also print time is drastically less and no wait time is needed to see that actual model, so the time spent waiting for the PVA to melt is spent finishing the model which you would have to do regardless, I still believe that too much PVA is used in support and there needs to be a more efficient use of pve with some sort of dual system where only the support that actually touches the model is PVA and the rest is the same material as the model.

 

The main difficulty was the fingers pointing down (or anything else small and long pointing down lol) as the support would only be from the fingertips which would no way be strong enough to support the entire arm before it joined up. Also print time is predicted to be around 2 days 2 hrs so it will be around 2days 6 or 7 hours by my experience. Still printing, 1 day remaining. 

 

Just the tree trunk done here so far....

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by cloakfiend

[kmanstudios 1,120]

8 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

I still believe that too much PVA is used in support and there needs to be a more efficient use of pve with some sort of dual system where only the support that actually touches the model is PVA and the rest is the same material as the model.

I believe this is what you are looking for.

 

But! I, for one, am very eager to see this and see it get the Alchemy Master Treatment ?

[cloakfiend 995]

Im new to this and just want a button that says minimal pva use. But yes this model will be my pride and joy. If not ill print it again until it is!

[cloakfiend 995]

This will then be a non pva use guide. The generic support setting of 15% seems pretty solid to me. We shall see in a few hours!

[kmanstudios 1,120]

I have used PVA at 15% before....that stuff is expensive!

 

[cloakfiend 995]

Ah, I was referring to 15% of regular support material. I just hate long print times, and want to see my stuff ASAP. The default support i think is great, but long towers need some kind of extra help as they just cant stand up on their own, this is where things fail. I glue pieces of filament between the towers to strengthen them, but just now realize i forgot to do one and im at work now. oh well maybe it wont have gotten to it by the time i get back? My main reason for FDM use over resin is cost. This is why i dont invest in resin. Mess and cost. After initially cancelling buying the makerbot which i was going to buy in the beginning, and looking at all other printers, it became apparent that the UM2 was superior and quicker, so I got that at the time. Many people on the net (I'd estimate 95%) don't consistently print higher than 0.1, because they don't see much quality differences, but they are huge. You just need post production to see them. Being able to finish your prints is essential to having them look great, and this just seems to be another hurdle people don't seem eager to cross, just accepting the lines. I hate the lines on smooth surfaces. Once you learn to clean up prints, it really doesnt take long at all, a few hours max to be perfect. All you really need is a pair of small pliers to rip out the support, a set of needle files, a dremel for mass grinding and burring, and some 240- 320 grit sandpaper, and a good eye.

 

This is why making your own support is advised because you can make it in a way that makes it easy to remove and in places that you can reach easily. also it guarantees a successful print. Printing anything in 0.1 is simply a waste of time for me. It would take me far too long cleaning it up to be worth my while, hence 0.06.

 

Just curious but what layer height do you regularly print in @kmanstudios?

 and do lines bother you? and if not why not? I use the UM2/UMS5 because I can easily achieve a line free-ish surface. Which was my whole reason for buying the printer in the first place. I thought theacetoe vapour method would do it to ABS but I soon found out that destroyed far more details than was worth doing it and was unpredictable and smooth surfaces weren't geometrically smooth, but more shiny. I think people confuse shiny with smooth. and ABS and acetone on a sphere does NOT produce a perfectly smooth surface, but more of an unevenly smooth and shiny surface. The key word here being unevenly. That to me is a deal breaker. Acetone on PLA produces consistently smooth surfaces, you only need to watch out for thin part warping, but seeing as you arent simply dunking it into a vapour chamber, you can apply varied amounts of acetone to parts that need it more than others.

 

I just ruined my antique table and am going to attempt to re-veneer it! lol, should be a laugh never done that before.

 

M

[kmanstudios 1,120]

21 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

Just curious but what layer height do you regularly print in @kmanstudios?

I print all over the place due to the variance of my designs or print needs.

For instance, I just finished up a BMU (Building Maintenance Unit, i.e. crane for cleaning skyscrapers) and since it is either rectilinear in the horizontal angles or just circular parts, I went at 0.2 mm layer height. It also plays into the fact that the client actually likes that '3D printed look.' My first samples for them were cleaned, line free and painted to look like a model. But they preferred the unfinished '3D printed look.' Go figger...but hey, woiks fer me ?

 

The Barbarian Statue will be printed in 0.1 layer height due to the amount of just psychotic curves at all viewings.

I am finishing a two part print that the main figure is printed at 0.2 to speed things along, but the base he sits on is printed at 0.1 to hold details. This is the design below. The main figure is printed and drying after removing the PVA. I have also learned how to make scaffolds that will fill most of the volume and leave just a small mount of PVA usage. Regular material (Not the super high-end materials that are astonomical in cost) are half the price. And since the scaffold does not need to look pretty, I put no infill and only one wall. All it has to do is support the PVA and it does that well.

 

It also depends on what type of post processing I will be using and how the filament looks in a raw form. They are coming out with some nice refinements that really hide the layer lines quite well. Also, as I move from purely experimental printing into finished pieces, I am locking my settings down much better.

 

This is the design I mentioned. Main character printed at 0.2mm layer and base 0.1 mm layer. The time difference was astounding. Main figure printed in 95 hours. The base is still printing for a total of 153.75 hours. Still two days and 9 hours to go.....sighhh.....

Silly art piece when I made the design....

 

This is the main character printed on the S5. The layer lines are there, but will be easy to remove at priming and sanding time.

 

 

The design piece was just  some quick textures to separate areas. The painting will be much more detailed.

 

And, just before anybody else says it...it is a yolk of a print! Bwahahahahahahaha......sigh, I amuse meself sometimes ?

 

Edit: The BMU was printed on the S5 due to the final size. 1 meter when fully extracted. I ven had to place the booms at angles to fit on the buildplate. I will be posting pics after tomorrow when I deliver it. I have no space large enough to take pics properly.

Edited August 13, 2018 by kmanstudios

[cloakfiend 995]

Damn you use all that space! my next project is going to use all the space too but not go so high. I'd need like 2 weeks to do that in 0.06! but i guess with plain things with no surface detail it would be ok to finish.

 

And yes indeed come to think of it some people do like the look, its true, I've heard that too, some people actually told me to leave the lines! Yay no post post work. I guess i understand, but for myself I like things as close to perfect as i can get. I think the people who ask to leave the lines want to make sure that others around them know or can visually see that it has indeed been 3D printed. Whilst on the other hand the people who I show my prints to ask me why they cant see any layer lines that they are used to observing from 3D prints. Each to their own I guess. The quality I try to get my prints to is simply not necessary for some people and I just have to accept that. I have quality OCD issues.

Edited August 14, 2018 by cloakfiend

[kmanstudios 1,120]

10 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

I like things as close to perfect as i can get.

Perfection is such an illusory thing. An example would be my fractal prints. The layers and other crazy artifacts that can happen with 3D printing actually lend to the artistic value. But for the things that you do, it would just destroy the piece. That is why I admire your work so much. You really do make that level of result happen, both in sculpting and final presentation of piece. Truly amazing work :)

 

12 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

I think the people who ask to leave the lines want to make sure that others around them know or can visually see that it has indeed been 3D

Totally agree. I remember when 3D graphics were just starting out seriously in the mid 90's Everybody complained it looked 'too computery.' THEN when they developed tools for a more natural movement and finishes, people started to want that 'retro 3D animation look' with all the 'too perfect motion' and all metal, plastic or glass shaders....nothing natural at all. I also remember when Architects, here in the states, started to do things with 3D, they were afraid to make it look too real. At that time, they were afraid of actually being sued for a place not looking exactly like the image when a project was complete and people could walk through.

 

15 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

Each to there own I guess.

Exactly :) You can please all of the people some of the time and none of the people all of the time. The latter are the people that I have worked for in most of my career.....

 

16 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

I have quality OCD issues.

Ain't nothing wrong with that. It is called a 'point of view.' Just do it well is all a person can do. And, you do yours with exceptional results. :)

[kmanstudios 1,120]

That did remind me of something that did happen to me about 25 years ago. In my earlier years, I did airbrush work that was photorealistic. Had to as much of the work was also photoretouching. Ages before Photoshop and such.

 

But, I landed a gig doing an ad and was at a really, really broke stage of life. For instance, walking from Queens to my job in Manhattan. But, I had to get this thing done. So, I got the cheapest acrylics I could find and what I had left over. No brushes. So, I used Q-Tips to paint with. Was really, really different. Best reaction I got in ages. It took me another 25 years to let my inner expressionist out, but it start me on the path.

 

Life leads you where you need to go, not always where you want to go.......I just take the long ways sometimes. That is why I bought my own equipment....nobody could tell me what to do. ?

 

[cloakfiend 995]

Boy life is taking me the long way round alright, I still dont know where I'm going to end up!

 

Owning your own kit is a massive advantage.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

27 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

Owning your own kit is a massive advantage.

I has been very freeing creatively ?

[cloakfiend 995]

I just got 5 and a half more hours of my night shift left! ahhhh! so tired! 

[kmanstudios 1,120]

One of my best jobs was working the night shift. I was the night shift ?

 

I am a natural night owl and it is tough for me to conform to normal day routines like the rest of the world.

 

When I was 7 I decided I would really like to be a vampire.....all nighters with a reason, who cares about the sun....that sort of thing...then I realized what I would have to do to eat and well, that was the end of that! ?

[cloakfiend 995]

I am also a total night own, its often quite hard to get hold of me at times. I don't mind, but 12 straight hours in a row can be pretty tiring. Especially when I have an idea but have to wait ages before I can execute it! I cant wait for this piece to be done, I've delayed it for ages. I have like 6 big jobs I've been putting off. 3 of them need the width of the S5 the others can be done on a UM2.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

19 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

Especially when I have an idea but have to wait ages before I can execute it!

That matey is the worst! But, it does give you time to refine and plan things. The way my mind works is that I can picture every step I will take and every menu item I will use and break down the process for hen I get to sit down and do it. Then I just plow into it and let it rip, so to speak.....

 

21 minutes ago, cloakfiend said:

3 of them need the width of the S5 the others can be done on a UM2.

That is what I am doing. Breaking jobs into parts that the printers maximize my output. I am not a purest by any means, so, whatever printer it will fit on, it gets used. And with the consistent quality of the UM3Es and the S5 in my house, it lends towards expected results.

 

When it does not do so, it is that strange 18" error gap.....

The distance between myself and the computer ?  otherwise known as User Error ?

[cloakfiend 995]

Only 3 Hours to go! cant wait to see how my Shapeshifter has come along!

 

My main errors are forgetting little things like support, or forgetting to change something on the model like eyes or hair, or some other area I meant to refine. But as I said earlier, the harder I try to make everything perfect and timely, things tend to go wrong. Out of 10 things I do 9 go well and I forget to prepare for the remaining 1. But as you said when in autopilot, things tend to get done extremely quickly, I plated 8 Heads in one day! That was a record for me, nice thick plates too! 

 

Sometimes I actually find myself thinking about something far longer than the thing takes me to do. Procrastinating for too long is another main problem. I need clients to give me deadlines, no deadline with me means you may never get what you wanted regardless of how much you are paying.

 

Im entering the frame of mind of actually finishing pieces off (or at least printing a version of them) rarther than endlessly changing them along with many others and never getting round to printing them.

 

I have a list of things to finish that is way too long. Im not doing any new things now unless all the old ones are done. Bar a few of course. I always have time for scanning naked ladies! ?

 

 

[cloakfiend 995]

Well turns out the hand failed after all but in a nice and easy way i can easily fix it back on. Shame though. There really needs to be support for the support material. The towers should join once they hit a certain height. Tall towers that aren't connected to anything fall over way too easily. Especially on the S5 compared to the UM2 with its heavier head. I kinda thought it may fail but if you don't try then you'll never really know. it just means ill alter how i make the support in the future. You live and you learn! Practice makes perfect!

 

I now reckon that all supports MUST touch at the base as when the head moves across it just smashes it over otherwise. Towers that don't join that are close to each other have a high risk of getting knocked over especially when they support a new part of the object that is to rejoin another part further on on the print.

Edited August 15, 2018 by cloakfiend

[kmanstudios 1,120]

3 hours ago, cloakfiend said:

Procrastinating for too long is another main problem.

That has been an issue for me as well in times past. Now I just juggle things based on when everything has to come together. For instance, the Duck Vader thing. I had done all the 'serious' sculpting for one day on the barbarian, had manipulated the first of my Venom prints )post processing) and a series of other things all day. But I had energy yet to burn. Just wanted to do something loopy and not intensive.

 

Also, procrastinating can lead to being in a hurry when you get started finally. It is a balance.

 

Could not post Venom until I had the 'straight print' ready to post with it for comparison, did not have the brain cells to edit and organize posts for post processing or modeling posts.

 

So, what I have learned to do is work on several things at once and organize the prints in the order that makes the most sense to me. That way I have time for other things. Like one thing I need to do is get started on epoxying the Dino Diorama. But, that is a space issue. All parts are printed, but the space it will take is an issue.

 

And, it just happened that the Duck Vader thing just fit fit nicely in between important prints or filled voids of time properly. I have so many backlogged prints and ideas it is not funny.

 

So, as I get up to check on prints and such, I see that you should be off from work right about now. Good luck on the print!! Cannot wait to see it.

[cloakfiend 995]

14 more hours to go....apparently. means it will finish 2 hours into my next nightshift. Shame the printer will be doing nothing for the next 10ay as well use the time to prep my next print....

Can't wait to cut this one out!!!! Yay! I hope the head doesnt fail!! That would be a deal breaker, but seeing as i forgot to tilt his head like in the picture, ill print him again on my UM2 and do a surface quality comparison. Ok im gonna kip for a bit now!

[kmanstudios 1,120]

My supports usually do not fail like that. This is an image of something I will be posting soon. This is the PETG and Taulman T-Glas print I did a ton of post processing on. Look how spindly that support is on the right side. That was just the most visible on this view.

 

Before anybody asks, it is a Venom piece using fractals to do the sculpt, so it is a bit impressionistic in approach. Bit, I wonder why yours failed. Have you tried towers (In support section of Cura) or conical support (In experimental) to spread the base a bit?

[cloakfiend 995]

Haha. I find cura support random, and at 0.06mm much more opportunity to hit. Almost twice as likely as 0.1 and 4 time more likely than 0.2. I have also had stupidly long ones at times but i dont tweak much just speed settings mainly. I use default support. Works 75% of the time. Ive had them break halfway and repair themselves as well though. Oh well i just have to accept the fact that it happens. I also print with fast settings of inner layers which might be the problem 70 mm/s. But who knows? i have never seen it happen on my um2 in 4 years....mind you support was like 2mm thick in cura back then lol. Goodnight fella!!!!

[SandervG 1,521]

14 hours ago, cloakfiend said:

This will then be a non pva use guide. The generic support setting of 15% seems pretty solid to me. We shall see in a few hours!

 

I think what Kman tried to show is the support interface setting. It does not really reduce your overal print time that much as support still is printed, except it only prints the few layers between your model and the supports in PVA. The result is that you use less PVA so soaking it in water is much faster, and less PVA is necessary (which is generally a bit more expensive). 

 

This setting only makes sense if you have no 'internal' support and only on the outside. 

[kmanstudios 1,120]

Thank you for clarifying :) Sometimes I think I need an interpreter....always why I preferred to show rather than tell.

[cloakfiend 995]

Ca you show me the setting that only puts a bit of pva between the support and object, I would be keen to give that a go!

 

In the meantime, this print is shaping up real nice!!!! oh this ones gonna be sexy!