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SandervG

New: Ultimaker Cura 3.5

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4 hours ago, Bigbrit said:

 

I think, if you are going to charge a premium for your machines and target a professional customer you really need to have your house in order.  The software is free, yes, but it is companion software to expensive hardware.  Releasing software in this state in my opinion is unprofessional and damages Ultimakers reputation. 

Well stated.

 

The software as associated with the purchase of an Ultimaker is not free but rather bundled with the printer. 

 

The printer is being marketed as a total package; printer, software, NFC filament, service items, etc.

 

When the original Ultimaker was sold the idea of free open source software was an acceptable and frankly accepted situation however, with the Ultimaker 3 and the S5 that I purchased this is no longer the case as these printers are sold at comparatively speaking; a significant market premium because they are presented as the total package.

 

How and if Ultimaker compensates developers is unknown to me and frankly of little concern and yet I hope that they are compensated well. In fact, more than hope; they darn well better be as the software; Ultimaker Cura, is akin to the motor in a car for the average person and without it the printer is at best; a novel mechanical box. The reference to “free” can only be applied to those that use Cura as a slicing tool for “non” Ultimaker printers.

 

Use Ultimaker’s private labeled filament with the NFC chip as a solo example; when we purchased the S5 we also purchased roughly 15 rolls of Ultimaker private labeled filament. We did so knowing and accepting the fact that the same material (Ultimaker is not a filament manufacturer) was available at a “much” lower price but without the Ultimaker label and NFC integration. We discussed it internally as well as with Ultimaker and did so because of the software aka Ultimaker Cura that was presented to us as a throughly tested platform so we could truly operate pert near plug and play when ment that anyone could use the printer. If I wanted to set temps, speeds, etc. as we did for years we would not have stroked a check for over $8K USD for the printer, spares such as Print Cores, hot end fan, build plate, many rolls of Ultimaker’s private branded NFC filament, etc. but rather contunued using what we have.

 

Yes, we have developed software for 35 plus years and bugs are part of the routine however, untested deployments of software are unacceptable. Being told that the core Cura Team is extremely experienced however, some of the recent additions to the team not so much is no excuse for a poor deployment.

 

Test... test... test.. monitor.. and if needed quickly respond. The fact that Cura 3.5 is still being pushed and no apologies shared but rather people seem to be “butt hurt” but the comments is in my opinion; dumbfounding.

 

In my case turning the printer on and being able to depend on it is pivotal as is the case with numerous other businesses. For us; it is no longer a hobby but rather a tool for which we made the conscience decision to purchase at a price much higher that a hobby printer and we certainly did not agree to be a part of a beta program; in fact m; we were never asked.

 

Ultimaker shows OEM’s such as VW as using their printers; do you think for a moment that they would find such a chain of events acceptable; not a chance and even worse;

 

Situations such as this scare prospective customers away and deminish the overall value and confidence of 3D printing.

 

So back to the word “bashing” of the devoplers; I did not see “bashing” but rather a laundry list of issues being openly shared along with understandable frustration; mine included.

 

In my opinion; Ultimaker and their Cura  developement team should be saying “thank you” for believing in us and purchasing our product followed by “we are sorry” and we will endeavor not to have this situation repeat.

 

Humiltity goes along way.

 

 

Edited by Shadowman
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8 minutes ago, Link said:

 

That would be slightly relevant if the only users of Cura were Ultimaker owners, and if what they released meant people could not use their printers !. Two points there, the vast majority of Cura users I bet aren’t only Ultimaker owners, and lets be honest, the only issue is here that (some ) people cannot use one version of Cura. It’s not like 3.4.1 doesn’t work !. There are some great additions in 3.5 but it’s not like 3.4.1 wasn’t useable !, far from it. 

 

Slightly relevant? Im sorry but if you drop £6500 on an expensive printer you do not expect to get intrusive messages on the companion software telling you to update to the latest version only to find its buggy.  My S5 is running non stop, my last print was prototype formula E onboard camera mounting/aerodynamic parts that had to be delivered to ABB Formula E within 24h of the request - I do not have time to be messing around with software nor do I expect to do so at this price point.

 

I use an ultimaker printer, ultimaker filament and ultimaker software.... the whole concept is it is just supposed to work.  It is 100% relevant to me.

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15 minutes ago, Link said:

Ultimaker 2+ owners should be a lot more upset by the firmware which still hasn’t been fixed to correct the fact the material gets rammed into the hot end every time you change material !

I found on my machines that if you load the filament too far, it will slam into the printhead at loading speed and not printing speed and will cause grinding. This is on my UM3E, and I caused an issue with a days long print that will require some serious post processing to fix it. Would this apply to the UM2+ machine as well?

 

17 minutes ago, Link said:

That would be slightly relevant if the only users of Cura were Ultimaker owners

Kind of a false equivalency there. When a company puts forth a hardware and software solution towards big business, it is highly relevant.

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8 minutes ago, Bigbrit said:

 

Slightly relevant? Im sorry but if you drop £6500 on an expensive printer you do not expect to get intrusive messages on the companion software telling you to update to the latest version only to find its buggy.  My S5 is running non stop, my last print was prototype formula E onboard camera mounting/aerodynamic parts that had to be delivered to ABB Formula E within 24h of the request - I do not have time to be messing around with software nor do I expect to do so at this price point.

 

I use an ultimaker printer, ultimaker filament and ultimaker software.... the whole concept is it is just supposed to work.  It is 100% relevant to me.

 

I agree. If Ultimaker only made consumer grade printers, the bugs and inconveniences would be more tolerable. But not for pro gear like the S5. Perhaps they do need a pro version and an open/consumer version.

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44 minutes ago, Link said:

 

That would be slightly relevant if the only users of Cura were Ultimaker owners, and if what they released meant people could not use their printers !. Two points there, the vast majority of Cura users I bet aren’t only Ultimaker owners, and lets be honest, the only issue is here that (some ) people cannot use one version of Cura. It’s not like 3.4.1 doesn’t work !. There are some great additions in 3.5 but it’s not like 3.4.1 wasn’t useable !, far from it. 

 

Agree the software shouldn’t have bugs in it but UM are aware of this better than anyone and are fixing it. 

 

Ultimaker 2+ owners should be a lot more upset by the firmware which still hasn’t been fixed to correct the fact the material gets rammed into the hot end every time you change material !. I am a lot more concerned about a fix for this. Tbh I don’t get the stress over this issue when UM have acknowledge and are working on it !. 

 

Now UM team please release the 3.5 firmware for the 2+ ?

This is a Ultimaker forum and the Ultimaker printer is sold with “Ultimaker” Cura and as interesting as issues with other printers maybe; I don’t care.

 

As I recall; Cura used to have a Ultimaker Cura version and the Cura version. The idea being that the Ultimaker Cura version likely did not have all the latest tweaks because it was the throughly tested version and if you have wanted them you had to use the Cura version and effectively become part of the beta program; this appears to have changed.

 

As shared by others; I did not purchase a mechanical box referred to as an S5 but rather a printer with Ultimaker Cura as the operating system. 

 

Your comment makes no sense; it was akin to one purchasing a laptop and with Windows and told but use can use Linx or?

 

The fact that the printer was sold with Cura as the operating system is all that is being discussed.

 

Lastly; you are correct. Ultimaker Cura 3.4.1 seems to work fine this too is not the issue; the issue is we were encouraged; infact directed to upgrade to Ultimaker Cura 3.5 and then after a lengthy process of dealing with the issues opted to go back to Ultimaker Cura 3.4.1.

 

Ultimaker should be telling everyone to roll back, remove access to 3.5, and aggressively working with the developers to fix the program.

 

You “don’t” seem to be troubled by the fact that many, including myself, were presented with a mess but rather, you are trouble because we express our frustration based on “realistic” expectations and solicitation by Ultimaker.

 

For what it’s worth; if the S5 had been presented with Ultimaker Cura 3.5 rather than Ultimaker Cura 3.4.1 there is no doubt that we would have sent it back however, it is because we had great success with Ultimaker Cura 3.4.1 that this was never considered. Ultimaker Cura 3.5 reminds me of all the BS we dealt with for years; effectively a undependable novelty item that has no place in our business.

 

Having shared all this; I do respect your opinion even though I find them illplaceed and odd.

Edited by Shadowman

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30 minutes ago, svenyonson said:

 

I agree. If Ultimaker only made consumer grade printers, the bugs and inconveniences would be more tolerable. But not for pro gear like the S5. Perhaps they do need a pro version and an open/consumer version.

No.... absolutely not!!!

 

If Ultimaker wants to be the standard then whether consumer or professional the exact same concern and commitment is required.

 

Now if they want to expand their development team and beta program then I support this however, once the printer  is placed in a box and shipped it damn well better be ready for prime time.

 

I can’t afford to play games with the system and for others they simply don’t want to and even more so; many being introduced to the 3D printing world have not a clue; it works... or it doesn’t.

 

A fairly easy concept to understand.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Shadowman said:

As I recall; Cura used to have a Ultimaker Cura version and the Cura version. The idea being that the Ultimaker Cura version likely did not have all the latest tweaks because it was the throughly tested version and if you have wanted them you had to use the Cura version and effectively become part of the beta program; this appears to have changed.

 

You recall incorrectly. There never was such a distinction between two versions.

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30 minutes ago, Shadowman said:

No.... absolutely not!!!

 

If Ultimaker wants to be the standard then whether consumer or professional the exact same concern and commitment is required.

 

Now if they want to expand their development team and beta program then I support this however, once the printer  is placed in a box and shipped it damn well better be ready for prime time.

 

I can’t afford to play games with the system and for others they simply don’t want to and even more so; many being introduced to the 3D printing world have not a clue; it works... or it doesn’t.

 

A fairly easy concept to understand.

 

 

My point was simply that Ultimaker printer owners have an inherent right to software that works near flawlessly with the (expensive) printers that they purchased. Others just using free software do not. Having the others be the one to beta test and help flesh out bugs is fair in my book. The versions shipping with Ultimaker products should not be bleeding edge, they should be well tested, stable with LTS. 

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56 minutes ago, svenyonson said:

My point was simply that Ultimaker printer owners have an inherent right to software that works near flawlessly with the (expensive) printers that they purchased. Others just using free software do not. Having the others be the one to beta test and help flesh out bugs is fair in my book. The versions shipping with Ultimaker products should not be bleeding edge, they should be well tested, stable with LTS. 

Absolutely!!!!!!!

 

We are on the exact same proverbial page.

 

This needs to be convey and understood by Ultimaker or ......... they need to..

 

Present their products as simply another printer within the world of ever testing 3D printers and significantly reduce the prices.

 

I for one could care less about the name aka the lapel pin; I simply want to send a sliced item to a printer and whether hours or as is often the case; days later, remove the completed print; period.

 

If I opt to test widgets such as plugins I will do so on my own time “if” so desired while assuming all associated risk.

 

I believe that Ultimaker presents a wonderful albeit comparatively expensive package; a package that many including myself stroke the check for because of the “package”. I made clear that we bought into the package and “not” the printer which included the much higher priced private labels filament because it is part of the plug and play package as solicited.

 

Having dealt with fussy and less than consistent 3D printers while growing tired of them and after “much” consideration I purchased the S5.

 

The printer has presented some wonderful finished multi day prints with the addition of PVA allowing us to expand our horizons on a grand scale.

 

Thank you again for your comments.

 

Now in my opinion; Ultimaker as a team need to open a new thread and acknowledge the situation and make clear their plan. Add to this; an apology would be well received.

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Hi everyone, 

 

First of all, thank a lot for all the input we have received. 

Eventually, it helps us to deliver a better product, although I imagine it may seem gloom when your new Ultimaker Cura crashes, doesn't show your theme properly or doesn't slice properly. 

It has been an interesting read to go through these pages with good arguments from both sides. It is true, it is probably not realistic to deliver a new release entirely bug-free, but it is also true that some of the existing bugs could and should have been prevented. 

 

How to go from here? 

We've been keeping a close track of the reported bugs and we're happy to say we're working on a patched version 3.5.1 which should fix some of the most intrusive bugs, and should also be released today or tomorrow. Will it be bug-free? Probably not, but it should be a lot better. Cura 3.5.1 should fix most of the crashes, although it is good to mention we could not reproduce that bug reliably. And it fixes among others the speed and the connect support lines bug. I will write a message here when it's available. 

 

For future references, when you experience a bug it would help our developers tremendously if you could supply a log file and/or a clear description of when you are experiencing this bug. Being able to reproduce a bug significantly increases our chances of fixing it. 

 

Lastly, for some time there has also been a discussion going on, both internally as externally about the release cycle of Ultimaker Cura and where the focus should lie (reliability, new features etc). This discussion will certainly provide new input for this discussion. I don't know if it will be the deciding push into any direction, but it surely will have its impact. 

 

Thanks again for all the feedback and helping us make better products! 

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And I also wanted to add a final note about plugins since there was a reported bug about 2 of them.

First of all, make sure to keep reporting them of course when you encounter one. 

Secondly, it's good to realize there is a difference in ownership between features available through Cura and the toolbox/plugins. Plugins are usually contributed by third parties (big or small), and even though we curate and check the quality we have little control over fixing bugs in them because we don't own that code.

Features available through Ultimaker Cura are ours though, and we take full responsibility over those. Not to imply the toolbox is like the wild west, but it's good to realize who owns that code when you report a bug. And where possible, we'll accommodate the fastest fix possible.

And finally, we all certainly do our utmost best to offer you the most reliable user experience. 

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14 minutes ago, SandervG said:

it's good to realize there is a difference in ownership between features available through Cura and the toolbox/plugins

 

But one of those plugins is provided by... Ultimaker.

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23 hours ago, ahoeben said:

 

That may be true, but a fair amount of code was added after the release of 3.5.0-BETA that was not community tested; both the Settings Guide plugin and part of the Cura Connect rework was added after the beta was released, and both of these "break" with the dark theme. 

 

Perhaps having a second beta and/or one or more release candidates would be a good idea.

Releases should not have any features in there that were not in the beta.  If anything, this provided us with a valuable leasson that we should stick to it.

Edited by nallath
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17 hours ago, Shadowman said:

How and if Ultimaker compensates developers is unknown to me and frankly of little concern and yet I hope that they are compensated well. In fact, more than hope; they darn well better be as the software; Ultimaker Cura, is akin to the motor in a car for the average person and without it the printer is at best; a novel mechanical box. The reference to “free” can only be applied to those that use Cura as a slicing tool for “non” Ultimaker printers.

2

No need to wory about my paycheck ? But yeah, I agree. Cura is not "free" for UM clients. You already paid for it by buying the machine. If you have a look at github, you can see that we quite often say things like "Yup, you found a bug, but UM machines don't have it / don't need the feature, so we won't spend time on it". We also focus much more of our testing on UM machines because of this reason.
 

17 hours ago, Shadowman said:

Yes, we have developed software for 35 plus years and bugs are part of the routine however, untested deployments of software are unacceptable. Being told that the core Cura Team is extremely experienced however, some of the recent additions to the team not so much is no excuse for a poor deployment


Test... test... test.. monitor.. and if needed quickly respond. The fact that Cura 3.5 is still being pushed and no apologies shared but rather people seem to be “ butt hurt ” but the comments  is in my opinion; dumbfounding.

5

If you have 35 years of experience, you'd also know that no matter how much you test, there is no such thing as bug-free software. Are some of the issues things we should have caught? Maybe. It's always easy to say afterward. I would have loved to squashed em before we shipped it, but here we are.


That being said; what makes you think it wasn't tested? We did, especially for UM printers. The main issue is however that a lot of people complain about it not working, post very, very poor reproduction steps (if at all) and then do get mad about it not working. I can fully understand this frustration, but realize that this frustration is also there with me; Help me to help you. I'm not telepathic. If something doesn't work, I need info to resolve it.

We are monitoring. I've been reading what people say. I've also been typing my fingers off. You claim that there is no bashing involved, but I would like to ask you to look at a number of the assumptions that you make. Don't you feel that claiming that it's not tested or that "were not monitoring the situation" can be seen by some as bashing? I know that this is probably not your intent, but making these assumptions is a bit hurtful. Mostly because I am actually doing all of these.


I'm not saying that you shouldn't be critical of what we do; but do try to think about what it is that you are saying. Saying that "More testing" is needed has the same value as telling someone that was in a car crash to "pay more attention next time".
 

Edited by nallath
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OK. 

I think 'message received' would sum up a lot of what I have read.

 

This cannot have been an easy ride from any seat.   As someone who hasn't done anything perfectly in recent memory (except eating dinner - the weigh scales say I excel at that) - I think perhaps, with a plan in hand, it is time to let the humans in the middle of this arena off the mat for a bit and let them do their thing.

 

It was probably inevitable that the evolution from a plywood kit to an industrial machine would involve a shear at some point.  The needs of an open source hobbiest can be very different from someone running a print farm as a primary revenue stream.   Losing a couple of hours and a few metres of relatively cheap PLA on a Saturday is very different than having a carbon fibre print fail at hour 23 with a client waiting.  

 

Meeting the needs at both poles is not a small challenge.  But this is a good team full of smart people.  You've got this!

 

All the best for smoother rides ahead.

 

John

Edited by JohnInOttawa
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56 minutes ago, smartavionics said:

Thanks for the link. Sad if this really is the end of line. I am 'stuck' at 10.9.5. But it should not be impossible, there still some great complicated software still in development for 10.9.5 (for example FormZ). I may have to go back to Simplify3D that I left when I bought the UM3 (if this keeps evolving in my environment).

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