Aluminum build plate delivery

[Shadowman 53]

1 hour ago, SandervG said:

Hi Shadowman and Brulti, thank you for your responses. 

My apologies that my response follows a little bit later than usual. 

We just attended the 4-day lasting FormNext show in Germany which was quite demanding on my agenda. You may have also seen

a little bit less of my presence online for that reason too. 

 

That is one reason why you haven't received a response yet. 

The other reason is that an answer is rarely as easily given as a question. While 'a free extra glass plate' is easily proposed, the effects can be much larger and need to be thoroughly considered. While I regret that we can't provide a reliable aluminum build plate yet, I can imagine that you feel entitled to some form of compensation. But I am not sure if we will take this route. 

 

For the time being, I would like to ask you to be patient until we can provide you with more information about this subject and refrain from posting more replies with solely '???'. This will not result in a faster response and it does not benefit the community. 

Thank you for your understanding and have a great day. If you have any further questions, I am happy to help where I can. 

SandervG 

 

I do understand “busy” and had not noticed whether you were active or not.

 

With regards to the ???; to be frank I had nothing more to add to my feelings and those of others that I have communicated with but rather I did not want to see the thread fall to the bottom and then off the page.

 

To be clear; my comments were posted on November 2 which was 2 weeks ago.

 

As for Ultimaker’s present position as vaguely present by you; it is wrong and frankly improper.

 

Let me convey a single fact; the S5 was sold as a fully developed printer with features that made it unique in the Ultimaker line of printers several of which created the justification aka value that was consistent with the significant price.

 

Let’s use the unused port at the rear of the S5 as a comparative example; this was incorporated by Ultimaker for “possible” future feature updates with “no” assurances however, the aluminum build plate was included component of the S5; in fact the marketing blurbs state “included” with and yet at the time of or shortly after the purchase we were told that they would ship separately. There were no ifs, maybes, we are trying, nor ... we darn well hope we can develop it and if so we will ship you one.

 

Having shared this my position remains the same; Ultimaker taking 2 weeks to reply to my query was beyond excessive and the response as conveyed by you on behalf of the Ultimaker team is frankly; unacceptable.

 

SandervG, I mean not to frustrate you nor show you anything but respect as I can only imagine that the position you are placed in is awkward and without empowerment as such I “thank you” while also making clear that the powers to be within Ultimaker need to present “facts” and offer an intern arrangement instead of proverbial “smoke and mirrors”.

 

Takes care

Edited November 16, 2018 by Shadowman
Spelling

[Brulti 177]

I'm not too sure what more facts you might want beyond what Sander posted on his message of November 2 explaining the last-minute problems they found with the aluminum plates, thus the delay, then his message from Friday explaining that they have not yet decided what compensation there would, if there is even one. There's little else to add unless I'm missing something?

 

Also, trying to keep a thread on top with messages such as '???' is considered bad form and borderline spam in most places online. UM is acutely aware of the problem and it's consequences, poking them every few days serves no purpose.

[zungara 10]

I am a little bit suprised about the behavior of Ultimaker. I bought an S5 some weeks ago and i register the printer to get the aluminium print bed. My first printer was an Ultimaker and support and communication was excelent. But right now i have a little bit the feeling, that communication is not the same like years before. Last time i bought the printer directly from you. Now i have to bought the from a reseller (igo3d9) They made there job, but for the aluminium plate i have to ask what to do. Ok, i have done it, but there is no direct communication that the registration was successful. There is no info about the state of the aluminium plate. The aluminium plate was one of big points to buy the S5! I send a mail to Ultimaker.... no reaction....What are the next steps.....Things can go wrong, but if you feel that you as customer will not be taken seriously you will get be "unhappy". This is not a good idea with a 3D printer in this price range.

[Shadowman 53]

4 hours ago, zungara said:

I am a little bit suprised about the behavior of Ultimaker. I bought an S5 some weeks ago and i register the printer to get the aluminium print bed. My first printer was an Ultimaker and support and communication was excelent. But right now i have a little bit the feeling, that communication is not the same like years before. Last time i bought the printer directly from you. Now i have to bought the from a reseller (igo3d9) They made there job, but for the aluminium plate i have to ask what to do. Ok, i have done it, but there is no direct communication that the registration was successful. There is no info about the state of the aluminium plate. The aluminium plate was one of big points to buy the S5! I send a mail to Ultimaker.... no reaction....What are the next steps.....Things can go wrong, but if you feel that you as customer will not be taken seriously you will get be "unhappy". This is not a good idea with a 3D printer in this price range.

I appreciate you sharing your feeling as mine are similar, if not the same as has been my experience when I ask about it.

 

I was surprised that “Brulti” finds my posts offensive and to some degree Spam. My posts are fact based and not argumentative; in fact if anything; cordial while making clear my position.

 

Like everyone that purchased the S5 the aluminum plate was a heavily solicited part of this printer and it remains troubling that other than SandervG sharing that there are issues, no one from Ultimaker has reached out to me. There has been no apology for any inconvenience, no what can we do to help, no offer of a stop gap measure but rather, “silence”.

 

I have called the distributor and the Ultimaker support line only to be told; “we don’t know what’s going on.

 

So I share with “Brulti” and any one else that feels my relentless efforts are wrong and unnecessary either you work for Ultimaker or don’t have an S5 because my having invested nearly $10K USD in the S5 with materials and spare parts; I find this situation “unacceptable”.

 

Takes care 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Shadowman
Spelling

[Brulti 177]

@Shadowman You are misinterpreting or misreading what I posted, but it's alright, written communication via forums comes with it's drawbacks.

 

The only thing that I consider spam in what you posted are the several posts in this thread that only contains '???'. They add nothing to the conversation and serves no real purpose except to keep poking Ultimaker every few days, which is, in my opinion, completely unproductive.

 

As for your other points:

- SandervG is, for all intent and purpose, the spokeperson of UM on the forums. Why would other people from UM reach out to you when it is his job to be listening and answering to people here on the forums, which he did by replying to you several times, and he already gave all the information he could here, on this very thread? This makes no sense to me.

- You're wrong on two points: SandervG did apologize for the inconvenience on his message on November 2nd on behalf of UM, using those very words, and there has been communication from UM since SandervG did communicate with you on this thread and others.

 

So, while I can certainly understand your feeling about this whole situation; though I'd point out that how much you spent is irrelevant since I consider that a company should always deliver what they advertise whether you spent 10$ or 10 millions $, my feeling is that you are overreacting a bit.

 

Patience is a virtue, it's been barely two weeks since SandervG informed you of the situation. UM obviously got caught by surprise with this problem, which can happen to any company, and they're looking into solutions. But don't expect them overnight. It's highly likely, in my opinion, that the aluminum plate won't be shipped before next year, and I'm quite sure that Ultimaker will offer some form of compensation for the inconvenience and the delays at this time, once they've solved their problems.

[Shadowman 53]

2 minutes ago, Brulti said:

@Shadowman You are misinterpreting or misreading what I posted, but it's alright, written communication via forums comes with it's drawbacks.

 

The only thing that I consider spam in what you posted are the several posts in this thread that only contains '???'. They add nothing to the conversation and serves no real purpose except to keep poking Ultimaker every few days, which is, in my opinion, completely unproductive.

 

As for your other points:

- SandervG is, for all intent and purpose, the spokeperson of UM on the forums. Why would other people from UM reach out to you when it is his job to be listening and answering to people here on the forums, which he did by replying to you several times, and he already gave all the information he could here, on this very thread? This makes no sense to me.

- You're wrong on two points: SandervG did apologize for the inconvenience on his message on November 2nd on behalf of UM, using those very words, and there has been communication from UM since SandervG did communicate with you on this thread and others.

 

So, while I can certainly understand your feeling about this whole situation; though I'd point out that how much you spent is irrelevant since I consider that a company should always deliver what they advertise whether you spent 10$ or 10 millions $, my feeling is that you are overreacting a bit.

 

Patience is a virtue, it's been barely two weeks since SandervG informed you of the situation. UM obviously got caught by surprise with this problem, which can happen to any company, and they're looking into solutions. But don't expect them overnight. It's highly likely, in my opinion, that the aluminum plate won't be shipped before next year, and I'm quite sure that Ultimaker will offer some form of compensation for the inconvenience and the delays at this time, once they've solved their problems.

Your points are well made and your clarifications appreciated.

 

Thank you 

[bahatasaha 1]

How can we make sure that we get the aluminum build plate? Is there any application or link that I can apply too? 

 

 

[Smithy 1,144]

If not already done, there is a link (see the paper in your S5 box) where you can register for the build plate delivery.

[Carla_Birch 116]

The aluminium build plate as been cancelled going by a email I got just. We are now getting a 2nd glass build plate shipped out. It’s a shame as the aluminium build plate was sold to us with the promise that it’s better for printing some types of filament than glass. Now I guess it’s glass and sheets if you want to print something that eats into the glass if by itself.

[SandervG 1,521]

For your information, I also wrote a forum post about it in the 'Official news' section. Here is a link.

[bahatasaha 1]

Hi,

I do agree with everyone that aluminum plate was actually the eye candy for the ultimaker 5s. Things happen, if it’s possible to get an nozzle instead of glass build plate because I already made 2 extra glass plate from a waterjet cutter at my school. I really don’t need an extra one. 

[Shadowman 53]

 

 

Respectfully I share the following post within this thread having shared it in another thread only because this appears to be where Ultimaker would like the conversation to remain.

 

However, first I will add to my thoughts as shared below.

 

The aluminum build plate was “not” eye-candy nor some a random item but rather a significant component of the S5 package that increased value and cost. A component that made clear that Ultimaker had developed a truly unique printer; one that justified the price and presented a printer that was developed with the future in mind. 

 

At this moment Ultimaker is stating that a second glass plate will make one’s printing easier, that the real value of the aluminum build plate is modest at best, and that they will now include 2 glass build plates at the same retail price as those purchased with the “include” aluminum build plate.

 

IMO and at the risk of offending some, the presentation and offering made by Ultimaker is ridiculous. SandervG, I recognize that you are the one anointed to present the story and respect the position you were placed in; I also appreciated that which you do within the forum as well as that which you have done for me.

 

And yet;

 

How I opt to use the hardware is secondary to what I agreed to pay for versus what I received. Meaning; whether I ever use the aluminum build plate does not negate Ultimaker’s responsibility to furnish it. On a ridiculous level; how is Ultimaker’s presentation any different than if I paid for 50% of the printer and then instead of remitting the balance as agreed I blindly emailed Ultimaker sharing that it was based on my initial belief that I could afford it however, sadly this is not the case so I have included a stack of meal tickets so you don’t have to spend cash therefore your net out of pocket will be fine.

 

The bottom-line; Ultimaker presuming that I, much less anyone else want a second glass build plate; (extras if which I already purchase), as a replacement for uniquely developed aluminum build plate “and” that such a feature was not important during the purchase consideration is beyond comical.

 

Lastly; the distributors are “still” soliciting the cool and uniquely developed aluminum build plate as included with the S5 and Ultimaker’s online documentation is too.

 

https://ultimaker.com/en/stories/52571-the-ultimaker-s5-is-here

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.all3dp.com/1/ultimaker-s5-3d-printer-review/

 

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0607/4289/files/Ultimaker_S5_specification_sheet_AU_3ac96a6f-88b9-4596-a3e4-feae355995f8.pdf

 

Takes care.

 

I have many thoughts at this moment with the most significant being that sending me another glass build plate and expecting that this is an acceptable alternative is both wrong and “unacceptable”.

 

The aluminum build plate was marketed as a uniquely developed piece for the S5 as such added both value and cost to the printer.

 

I am well beyond unhappy with this situation.

 

Something far more significant needs to be offered for “our” collective consideration as the “uniquely developed” aluminum build plate was not a hopeful or a maybe but rather an item presented as an S5 exclusive and included with the purchase. Sending all a blind email to be followed with a $20 piece of glass is total BS.

 

Period........

 

https://ultimaker.com/en/resources/52578-unboxing

Edited December 19, 2018 by Shadowman
Additional

[bahatasaha 1]

okay, I understand your concern...

what I meant by eye-candy, that it is unique  item that will increase the benefit of US5... easier to pop-out prints and you know it better than me...

I want to find out if we can get something else than a freaking glass plate...I got alerts from this tag...also I just finished finals in school...I just found out, about this bad news like 12 hours ago... without 3 days of sleep. I understanding how you feel...

Edited December 20, 2018 by bahatasaha

[Shadowman 53]

2 hours ago, bahatasaha said:

okay, I understand your concern...

what I meant by eye-candy, that it is unique  item that will increase the benefit of US5... easier to pop-out prints and you know it better than me...

I want to find out if we can get something else than a freaking glass plate...I got alerts from this tag...also I just finished finals in school...I just found out, about this bad news like 12 hours ago... without 3 days of sleep. I understanding how you feel...

Well stated ....

 

To be clear......

 

I remain “very” troubled by Ultimaker’s cavalier presentation after being told by Ultimaker “prior” to the Ultimaker S5 purchase how “significant” the aluminum build plate was as well as how much time had been put into the development of it.

 

Prior to purchasing the Ultimaker S5 I asked Ultimaker if retrofiting one for the Ultimaker 3 was being considered and I was quickly told that it would remain an Ultimaker S5 exclusive sharing that the associated development cost for the aluminum build plate was high and spanned a multi year development period of time. I was also told that the build plate heating system on the Ultimaker S5 was specifically designed to work with both the glass and aluminum built plates as evidenced within the menu options and the operation manual.

 

This was one of the unique features incorporated into Ultimaker’s most expensive printer as well as, their initial business class printer offering. I was assured that releasing the Ultimaker S5 was a very methodical process because it was thoroughly tested over a couple years. Additionally, that the Ultimaker S5 was Ultimaker’s first printer with future expandability designed into it. 

 

in any case.......... 

 

Thank you for your comments.

[zungara 10]

6 minutes ago, Shadowman said:

Prior to purchasing the Ultimaker S5 I asked Ultimaker if retrofiting one for the Ultimaker 3 was being considered and I was quickly told that it would remain an Ultimaker S5 exclusive sharing that the associated development cost for the aluminum build plate was high and spanned a multi year development period of time. I was also told that the build plate heating system on the Ultimaker S5 was specifically designed to work with both the glass and aluminum built plates as evidenced within the menu options and the operation manual.

 

This is the point! 

[SandervG 1,521]

Thank you all for your responses. 

13 minutes ago, zungara said:

Prior to purchasing the Ultimaker S5 I asked Ultimaker if retrofiting one for the Ultimaker 3 was being considered and I was quickly told that it would remain an Ultimaker S5 exclusive sharing that the associated development cost for the aluminum build plate was high and spanned a multi year development period of time. I was also told that the build plate heating system on the Ultimaker S5 was specifically designed to work with both the glass and aluminum built plates as evidenced within the menu options and the operation manual.

 

There is some truth to that statement but it's not entirely correct. One of the reasons to develop an aluminum bed is that it would make making large prints with an engineering material easier on such a large build volume as the Ultimaker S5 has. For the Ultimaker 3 it would indeed make little sense because the glass plate, heating and adhesion is sufficient for our range of materials. 

 

Without an aluminum bed you can still print all engineering materials, but you have to be a little bit more attentive to your use of adhesives and external factors. If you or anyone else needs any help with this, if you are experiencing difficulties with adhesion please get in touch with me and we'll make sure to help you out! 

 

The comment regarding future expandability does not fall or stand with this aluminum bed update. That concerns other projects. 

 

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask and I'll be happy to help. Hope you have a great day! 

 

 

[asb 7]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:08 PM, SandervG said:

[…] we'll most likely not make the fall 2018 deadline. While the initial tests and results have been very promising with the aluminum build plate, later results were less consistent and it has been a continuous road of improvements and iterations with only one goal in mind; quality results and a reliable experience for our users. 

Although we're making progress, it's been decided to postpone stating a new delivery date until it is more certain. […]

 

When engineering a new product, aren't research, product development and testing the steps which comes before selling the actual product?

[Smithy 1,144]

5 minutes ago, asb said:

When engineering a new product, aren't research, product development and testing the steps which comes before selling the actual product?

 

I am sure UM did all the steps, otherwise, they would not talk about and ofc never sells it bundled with the S5. I guess the problems started when they went into mass production and in my opinion, it is better to go the hard way and say stop, than they deliver a product which doesn't meet the expected quality.

[asb 7]

 

2 hours ago, Smithy said:

I am sure UM did all the steps, otherwise, they would not talk about and ofc never sells it bundled with the S5.

 

Sure they did. Just ask the easter bunny or uncle santa.

 

FFS, the aluminum bed was a key feature of the S5!!!

 

This is from the official promotion video for the product.

This video is not a technology preview!

 

 

On 12/20/2018 at 11:10 AM, SandervG said:

One of the reasons to develop an aluminum bed is that it would make making large prints with an engineering material easier on such a large build volume as the Ultimaker S5 has.

[Smithy 1,144]

Don' understand what you want to say with posting pictures and videos. We all know that it was planned to bring the aluminum plate to the market. But luckily they stopped it before delivering the plate to the customers before they complain about bad quality, not flat enough or that the materials don't stick as expected.

[Shadowman 53]

5 hours ago, Smithy said:

Don' understand what you want to say with posting pictures and videos. We all know that it was planned to bring the aluminum plate to the market. But luckily they stopped it before delivering the plate to the customers before they complain about bad quality, not flat enough or that the materials don't stick as expected.

Smithy

 

I not only understand, but support asb’s posts.

 

For some this maybe no big deal, some many not realize that it was sold to all of us as a developed product with Ultimaker having had the Ultimaker S5 operational in their environment for over 1 1/2 years making certain it was without issues before being released to sell with the aluminum build plate being a simple delayed delivery item. And then add to this; The aluminum build plate was solicited, marketed, and sold by Ultimaker as a very unique core feature of the Ultimaker S5. It was to be flatter than glass, easier to use with no concerns for chipping etc. like glass, and designed with present and future materials in mind.

 

Smithy, it is a very big deal.

 

All the best.

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi @asb, thank you for your responses and joining the conversation. 

We also regret not being able to deliver the aluminum bed. I don't think anyone was favoring this outcome. We tried our best, but after great initial results we could not overcome some remaining challenges and our experiences became unreliable and not up to our standards. We do believe this is a better route than the alternative, which is releasing a product which we can not guarantee its reliability and behavior. And we also did not want to postpone it inevitably, which would only add to the frustration too. 

We think an additional glass plate offers a similar functionality as an aluminum bed would have, all of our engineering material profiles are being tested on a glass plate and it provides a similar uptime as an aluminum bed would have. If you have no need of an additional glass plate, please feel free to reach out to me via a DM and we can talk over your specific situation and use case and find a common ground to move forward on. 

 

I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Once again our apologies for the inconvenience. 

 

 

[Kevinrhug 0]

I have access to a CNC mill.  Is it worth making an aluminum build plate and covering it with Garolite for flexibility.  We print quite a variety of materials. Some of our parts are used in our 15lb weight class battlebots.