UlrichC-DE 114
5 minutes ago, friedl_basson said:The local agent claims this is a worry free process as you do not have to clean resin tanks, you simply swop them out. This of course mean you have to have multiple resin tanks 🤣
Help, that's not very credible. Having several tanks is not a mistake. Someone still has to clean the replaced tanks.
Throwing away only makes sense if your employer comes on the horse and pays with gold ducats.
12 minutes ago, friedl_basson said:The math is easy then, the part will either cost $12.70 or $23.50. This is not even keeping in mind that you will use 2-3 resin tanks for 500 enclosures and not sure how much IPA cleaning the parts. Both of these exceeding the target price which is currently the client's cost for having the enclosures made from Aluminium sheeting.
You can also work with a pre-cleaner (so a station more). Then you save on IPA. However, I cannot recommend IPA. Spirit is more tolerable in the long run.
15 minutes ago, friedl_basson said:So the decision seems easy then, just need to come to terms with it 😁
If it won't leave you alone. Maybe get yourself a UniFormation GKtwo printer. It's like Form only without the wiper. Or an Elegoo Saturn * - it will make msla parts.
A little slower. But you're paying money for goods and not for a vision. Almost like in real life. Customers are happy to pay for reliability, know-how, function and quality.
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UlrichC-DE 114
Unfortunately, I don't understand that again.
Formlabs does not have MSLA printers. As far as I know, Formlabs only builds SLA and SLS printers.
The common misconception
*SLA and SLS are not a new innovative solution for better printing, nor are they a replacement for FDM.
They are different processes in themselves, each with their own results and conditions.
In the hobby, one may be more beautiful and more important than the other. In reality, it depends on the parts you want to produce. The price of the printer itself is not so relevant at first.
About the process
If you could decide between hobby or series production, it would be easier.
Because with the SLA and MSLA printers you have a higher throughput of parts if a corresponding process is established. Otherwise, it makes little sense compared to FDM printing. Just switching on the printer somewhere and printing something is simply not possible with the *SLA/SLS process. In the case of *SLA, the printers require an air-conditioned room. In the case of SLS, even a room with controlled humidity.
About the parts
FDM and SLS work with polymer plastics. SLA and MSLA work with resins.
Everything that comes out of the SLA and MSLA printers is therefore only "like" plastic.
You need to build up experience with it. If necessary, retest and adapt your product line. A 1:1 change is not possible.
Resins have properties that polymers do not have.
In particular, dimensional stability correlates with brittleness. This is why this printing process quickly becomes an adventure in the technical field.
Regarding your question about future investment
If you want to commit yourself to just one type and manufacturer and printer, it always sounds to me like "Should I cut off my right or left arm".
Regarding your question about production.
If you need a part that you can produce in 10 hours on the printer 500 times, this is probably calculable. You can also download the software from Form and play around with it.
Since you seem to have an Ultimaker, you can think about how many more of these printers you might need.
You can request the part from external manufacturers with different processes.
You can get a plastic injection molding machine. You can lease or buy a 5-axis CNC center.
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friedl_basson 6
Hi -
Hmm... I thought mSLA is the technology where LCD screen is used as apposed to laser. If this is the case, then yes Formlabs does indeed produce a mSLA printer in the new Form4 which uses a LCD panel similar to many of the other resin printers.
About the rest - thank you for your thoughts. I realize both have the advantages and Formlabs (according to the many videos I watched) seems the have process a little less "messy" than the rest due the cartridge system as well as some filtering in the machines themselves.
I am aware of (some) the advantages of both systems and coming from FDM background it is not an easy call to make to invest $6500 (and then some) into a new technology that I am not familiar with. Just trying to make the right decision here. My concerns with SLA (or mSLA for that matter) is the amount of post processing required after washing and curing and of course - whether anyone agrees or not - the pricing of the resin affects the part cost and if it is too expensive for the client, then there is no use.
Well I would argue that if I stick with FDM and both printers are Ultimaker, I would not have to stock both 1.75mm and 2.85mm filament for one. Second getting to know the eco systems will be easier than using two different machines and the same parts (for most) could be used between eg. UM S3 and S5. And my OCD would not go off the rails 🤣
Thanks again for all the feedback.
ps: I did download various slicers to test and simulate the same prints. In terms of speed, there is one very clear winner and that is the FORM4 from Formlabs. It out Performs anything else by a mile. The same print job that takes that printer 2 hours to complete, will take 13h+ one most FDM machines (according to the slicers). On the downside, it is also the most expensive upfront cost and most expensive per part.
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UlrichC-DE 114
I actually didn't know that FormLabs also builds MSLA (i.e. with LCD) with the Form 4.
Soon probably also FDM printers
The only really great thing about the shape is the built-in wiper. But otherwise you will always be standing in front of the printer wearing a gas mask and thick rubber gloves. Other manufacturers also have filling systems, but the printer does not clean itself.
In any case, the technology is cheap if it is needed. In the case of FDM and SLA, there may be orders and plans behind it that make this technology a real weapon. In the area of development, it is obvious. It is similar in the area of production, but requires a little more imagination and test series.
I always look at as much as possible and test some things out. But when it comes to production, I believe that the machines themselves have to pay for themselves at some point. This is more difficult with SLA/MSLA than with an FDM.
The printing times depend on the resin. the more stable / flexible you want it to be, the longer the times will be. standard resin is usually very brittle and becomes the consistency of shockolade at 70-80 degrees. it is therefore advisable to have parts printed for testing before purchasing. This is of course only interesting for technical parts.
I hope you continue to enjoy printing.
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friedl_basson 6
It is brand new, think it was launched a month ago. Here they (both UM and FL) are about 33% more expensive than elsewhere due to shipping and our weak currency, so that make the investment a bit steeper.
My reasoning for looking at FL was two fold:
so I thought IF we invest further, maybe it is not a bad idea to have two different technologies, so we can use the appropriate one when needed BUT it seems the FL, due to the resin and other running costs, makes the manufactured parts to expensive. Our market here is not really suitable to rely one small prototype print runs for which you can charge more, to have some sort of ROI we would need to do medium sized print runs and they are price sensitive.
The reasoning for considering UM (also looked at BL X1C) was the
But that would not give me the option of the nicer surface finishes or the other geometries I am currently unable to replicate. On top of that I heard rumors the S5 might not be in production for very long and spare parts might become a bit harder to obtain. S7 and Factor for is more than what I can justify spending at the moment as 3D printing is NOT my core business, PCB design is 🙂
The local agent claims this is a worry free process as you do not have to clean resin tanks, you simply swop them out. This of course mean you have to have multiple resin tanks 🤣
Anything other than the standard FL resin here is way too expensive and you will not be able to recover those costs. As an example, a current project I am quoting is is for 400-500 enclosures every two months. The target price is $10.45.
Each enclosure (if the sliver is anything to go by) will use 100ml of resin. Here the cost resin is:
The math is easy then, the part will either cost $12.70 or $23.50. This is not even keeping in mind that you will use 2-3 resin tanks for 500 enclosures and not sure how much IPA cleaning the parts. Both of these exceeding the target price which is currently the client's cost for having the enclosures made from Aluminium sheeting.
So the decision seems easy then, just need to come to terms with it 😁
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