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CTotten

S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

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Posted (edited) · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

UPDATE:  I have now tried 2 prints since I updated to 5.7.2, and both have failed in the same way.  At the end of a spool, the material is "stuck" in printcore, so it cannot change spools.  The wizard does appear, but even after freeing the stuck material from the printcore, it does not fully unload, causing an ER61 error, and a lost print.  I installed 5.7.2 because I thought "Great, I will save a few cents per print since it doesn't prime as much material, especially when printing with the same color material over and over".  Well, at this point, I have lost about $125 worth of material in the two failed prints!!!  This is a job that I have printed dozens of times over the last few months with no issues.  In the two weeks prior to this, I have had atleast 5 material changeovers in the Material Station with no issues.  At this point, I want to roll the firmware back to the previous version because I don't trust this machine now, and I have work to finish.

____

 

I installed the latest firmware (5.7.2) yesterday.  I started a print, and all seemed well.  When I get to work this morning, the print was paused saying the current spool did not unload due to being stuck in the printhead.  It took me into the Wizard, and walked me through a couple of steps to free the material.  The procedure says to release the bowden tube at the top of the printcore, and then cut the material.  As I was trying to free pull the end of the bowden tube, the material pulled free from the printcore, so I didn't cut it.   With the material now released, I continued but it stopped unloading when the free end got the feeder, and gave me an ER61 error.  So the Wizard worked (sort of), but didn't save the print.

 

Also, on the ER61 page, it seems to give you two options if the material did not fully unload.  One is if the material is visible outside of the Material Station, and the other is if it isn't visible.  In the case of it being outside the Material Station, it seems to imply I should be pulling the material out through the small tube before the Decoupler.  In my case, there was about 15 inches of material past the Decoupler.  It seemed to work fine to pull the material "forward" through the Decoupler (I removed the input line to the Feeder).  Perhaps you should update that troubleshooting page to indicate options that include the material being stuck in the Feeder.

Edited by CTotten
Updated for second failure from same condition
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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
On 6/18/2020 at 8:47 AM, CTotten said:

I installed the latest firmware (5.7.2) yesterday.  I started a print, and all seemed well.  When I get to work this morning, the print was paused saying the current spool did not unload due to being stuck in the printhead.  It took me into the Wizard, and walked me through a couple of steps to free the material.  That released the material from the printhead, but it stopped unloading when the end got the feeder, and through an ER61.  So the Wizard worked, but didn't save the print.

 

Also, on the ER61 page, it seems to give you two options if the material did not fully unload.  One is if the material is visible outside of the Material Station, and the other is if it isn't visible.  In the case of it being outside the Material Station, it seems to imply I should be pulling the material out through the small tube before the Decoupler.  In my case, there was about 15 inches of material past the Decoupler.  It seemed to work fine to pull the material "forward" through the Decoupler (I removed the input line to the Feeder).  Perhaps you should update that troubleshooting page to indicate options that include the material being stuck in the Feeder.

One thing that I did notice after the fact.

The machine should have been doing a material change.  There was absolutely NO filament pieces on the bottom of the printer, meaning it did

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

IMG_2680.jpg

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

I may have it working now.  Very frustrating, but I removed both print cores to check them, swapped their positions, and re-did the X/Y calibration.  Both sides loaded and unloaded properly.  I re-started the previous print job that the failures occurred on, and started with about 2 feet of filament left inside the material station after loading, to force early material changes.  Material 1 just went through its material change just fine.  Material 2 will be changing over fairly soon, so I will update after that.

 

While I had not touched the PrintCores in months, I did have failure last week where the BreakAway did not bond to the printbed well, and a big chunk of it came loose during the print and caused all kinds of problems (including several large axis shifts during the print, presumably from collisions between the Print Head and the loose BreakAway section).  I am now wonder if that jarred the PrintCore enough that was not positioned correctly in the PrintHead, and that a misalignment was the cause of the material sticking in the PrintCore (but not enough to cause loading problems)?  I guess we will see.

 

And I seem to have bad timing (or luck) with Firmware changes.  This is the second time I have had "new" issues right after installing new firmware, but the firmware was not really the cause...

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

I have had the same problem. The wizard never comes up and I have to power the machine down and slowly pull the filament out of the material station. It's happened twice now.

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Posted (edited) · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

On the third attempt, after swapping PrintCores, both extruder 1 and 2 went through the normal material change (end of spool) process without any interaction from me.  However, when extruder 1 went through the end of spool process a second time, I got the wizard again. 

 

This time I followed the directions precisely (including leaving 5mm of material out of the Bowden tube when I cut it off), and it seems to have saved the print.  The material unloaded, the next spool loaded, and the print resumed.  The first time through the wizard, I do not think I cut off the end of the filament that came out of the PrintCore, plausibly being the reason it stuck in the feeder.  The second time through the wizard I don't remember what I did, but it didn't work.

 

So I am still left with this:

In 18 months with the S5 (4 months with the Pro Bundle), I have NEVER had material stick in the PrintCore during unloading (end of spool, end of print, or changing material).  Since installing firmware 5.7.2, this have happened 3 out of 5 times on CPE material in PrintCore 1 (3 out of 4 times on end of spool, and 0 out of 1 on an end of print - X/Y calibration); 0 out of 2 times on BreakAway material on PrintCore 2.  I understand that 5.7.2 did make some changes to the material priming/depriming process.  Can you please look into this?  Is it not heating the PrintCore as much?  Is it not pulling as hard as it used to?  If the Pro Bundle can no longer reliably change over spools when it runs out, then it lost it's "value added" to me and my company.  We purchased the Pro Bundle to maximize printer up-time.  If I have to baby-sit material change overs, including pulling the Bowden tube out of the PrintHead, then I might as well just remove the Material Station from the system.

 

Also, I am "eager" to see if the process of freeing the stuck material has caused a layer (X/Y axis) shift in the print.  Since the PrintHead does not re-home after this process, there is a high likelihood that the actions the Wizard had me take to free the material inadvertently moved the PrintHead, inserting a bias in the coordinate system.  This would potentially cause another failed print, since it will not meet the customer's quality inspection.  I am holding my breath on this one....

Edited by CTotten

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
20 hours ago, tabiznet said:

I have had the same problem. The wizard never comes up and I have to power the machine down and slowly pull the filament out of the material station. It's happened twice now.

The Wizard is new for firmware 5.7.2, so if you didn't update recently, you likely don't have it.  For me, this issue only started happening after updating to firmware 5.7.2.

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
2 hours ago, CTotten said:

The Wizard is new for firmware 5.7.2, so if you didn't update recently, you likely don't have it.  For me, this issue only started happening after updating to firmware 5.7.2.

I'm on 5.7.2. Thats when it started for me as well

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
3 hours ago, CTotten said:

Also, I am "eager" to see if the process of freeing the stuck material has caused a layer (X/Y axis) shift in the print.  Since the PrintHead does not re-home after this process, there is a high likelihood that the actions the Wizard had me take to free the material inadvertently moved the PrintHead, inserting a bias in the coordinate system.  This would potentially cause another failed print, since it will not meet the customer's quality inspection.  I am holding my breath on this one....

I got lucky.  I do not see a noticable layer shift.  Finally something is going my way...

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

Hi @CTotten thank you for your detailed descriptions, very helpful! I will share your findings with our products experts and get back with you. 

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
1 hour ago, SandervG said:

Hi @CTotten thank you for your detailed descriptions, very helpful! I will share your findings with our products experts and get back with you. 

Thanks.  One more update.  The print finally finished, and the material in both PrintCores (#1 - UM CPE; #2 - UM BreakAway) successfully unloaded.

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

Thank you for the update. I've passed on your feedback regarding the wizard and we'll take it into account. Regarding the ER61 messages you are getting; while optimizing the procedures for faster prime-deprime between material changes we are reducing margins for the benefit of time. Within an acceptable range of course. But these Ultimaker profiles is not where we predicted any increased risk and should still be as stable as before. 

 

If you have encountered another ER61 error message, would you be willing to share the log files with us via this link?  Our product experts would be able to take a look. But let's hope it was just an unfortunate sequence of incidents. 

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Posted (edited) · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

I just went through another End of Spool material change, and it worked (PrintCore1 with CPE).  So I guess I am 2 for 5, in terms of successful spool changes (no interaction from me) since updating to 5.7.2.  But I was watching the temperature graphs.  I was a bit surprised when I noticed that the S5 didn't start pulling the material until the PrintCore temp got down to like 75 or 80 C.  I am not sure if this is "expected" behavior, but that seems to be doing a "cold pull".  While I understand you are basically doing that at the end of a print to keep the tip of the material formed from the next job, I am wondering if this is required at the end of a spool of material?  The machine can't use the remaining filament, so the shape of the tip is immaterial.  And it sits idle for 2 to 3 minutes while it cools down to that temp.  For the case of a mid-print material change (if you are concerned with how long it takes), why don't you pull the material from a warmer print core.  This will speed up the process, put less stress on the machine (compared to a cold pull), and minimize any risk of the material getting stuck in the print core.

 

The screen shot was taken a few seconds after the S5 began retracting the material for the material change.

EndOfSpool.png

Edited by CTotten

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

The problem with unloading even if its the end of the spool is if it's not done right you stand the risk of the tip being more of the filament then a real thin part then a small chunk of filament what can break off and get stuck in the feeder or in another part. What then stops you being able to load new filament and means you need to strip things down to remove the little part of filament.

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

I believe there are 3 reasons why it happens like that. For one, the reason @Carla_Birch mentions, that a hot pull will create a string which can get stuck in the feeder or in the bowden tube and generate additional, unwanted friction. The second reason is, besides avoiding any thin strings stuck in the bowden tube or feeder, you also want a clean tip so it passes the feeder and decoupler. And third, a cold pull also contributes to cleaning the nozzle and reducing the amount of filament that is left in there for your next print job, with a possible different filament. 

 

Hope this helps! 

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

One more update.  The last print did another end of spool change, which worked.  But, at the end of the print, I got the wizard again saying the material is stuck in the printcore and unable to unload.  The wizard worked, but....

 

I am still planning to roll back to the previous firmware version.  Since updating to 5.7.2, I am about 50% on the material unloading from the printcore.  This never happened before the firmware update.  I understand the changes made in 5.7.2 were to reduce wasted filament and time during material changes; however, I have wasted 10X more material and time with the issues caused then from the previous firmware's excessive priming and de-priming cycle.  And lets me honest, we are talking about several minutes of time and a few cents worth of material that were "wasted" in the previous version...

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

Ok, in the end you have to chose what works best for you. If that is the previous version, then you should roll back to that one. We're keeping an eye out for more feedback so we can investigate if this became an issue for more users, where it wasn't before. 

 

On 7/2/2020 at 6:15 PM, CTotten said:

And lets me honest, we are talking about several minutes of time and a few cents worth of material that were "wasted" in the previous version...

 

I agree, but regardless it was pretty consistent feedback that we've received. 

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
On 7/8/2020 at 4:40 AM, SandervG said:

I agree, but regardless it was pretty consistent feedback that we've received. 

Thanks for keeping an eye on this one.

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update
On 7/8/2020 at 4:40 AM, SandervG said:

Ok, in the end you have to chose what works best for you. If that is the previous version, then you should roll back to that one. We're keeping an eye out for more feedback so we can investigate if this became an issue for more users, where it wasn't before.

I saw there was a 5.7.3 firmware just released.  In the release notes, it mentions a fix to an "end of filament" bug.  Is that related to my issue?

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Posted · S5 Pro Bundle - Material NOT unloading from PrintCore after 5.7.2 firmware update

Hi, no it isn't. It is related to a few people where the end of filament was detected, but a new spool of the same material was not activated. But it is possible that it had an affect on your issue. The issues you experienced were not 'standard' for other users. Since you already rolled back, perhaps when you have a window to make some test prints or when you have some more flexibility you could give it a try. 

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