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Tigerbeard

Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

I have been strongly recommended to not use the glass bed directly but use a commercial large sticker that gives a good adhesion for my prints without the need of glue or long cleanup procuedures.

I have used theses stickers now for a while and they work very well. Only one problem accumulated quickly: the Auto Bed Leveling function prior every print always runs with a bit for force and a hot nozzle into the same point to detect the bed. After doing this a few times, the material of the sticker gets damaged. As this increases, the bed leveling can only get counter productive, because it starts its adjustment in a little 'crater' below the build surface whereas the other points are exactly on the build surface.

 

I removed the stickers so far, but they were nearly unused and only destroyed by this procedure. I thought this is a waste that can be avoided.

 

Is there a way to change the point where this procedure starts, maybe from Cura via network? It would solve the issue, if after some prints I just move the starting point by 1mm.

 

Thanks

 

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

There is now way to change the procedure, it's in the firmware and not configurable.

But with your UM3 you can disable the leveling completely. So level your bed manually and if you don't change your setup you can just print without it. It is a waste of time and there is no need to level before every print.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Hi Tigerbeard,

 

Well, @Smithy reacted faster, so just some aditional thoughts:

 

As I conclude from your other post, you're using UM adhesion sheets. They won't be damaged by the active levelling procedure. The little "craters" could be just small print material residue.

 

I use adhesion sheets mainly for printing ABS and if printing on bare glass doesn't adhere enough, and in my experience, removing a print stresses (and damages) the sheets more than the small probing points, and the  adhesion sheets are so thin that there is no false levelling.

 

One tip at last: I put my adhesion sheets at the backside of the glass ("non-sticker" side) and just selecting adhesion sheet or bare glass by turning the glass plate around.

 

Regards

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
32 minutes ago, Enigma_M4 said:

Hi Tigerbeard,

 

Well, @Smithy reacted faster, so just some aditional thoughts:

 

As I conclude from your other post, you're using UM adhesion sheets. They won't be damaged by the active levelling procedure. The little "craters" could be just small print material residue.

 

I use adhesion sheets mainly for printing ABS and if printing on bare glass doesn't adhere enough, and in my experience, removing a print stresses (and damages) the sheets more than the small probing points, and the  adhesion sheets are so thin that there is no false levelling.

 

One tip at last: I put my adhesion sheets at the backside of the glass ("non-sticker" side) and just selecting adhesion sheet or bare glass by turning the glass plate around.

 

Regards

Thanks. I did not disactivate it, but set it to weekly because I was not sure how it detorieates over time. With what you say I think I will deactivate it fully.

 

I am using 3M sheets, which is about 0.3mm thick. Unfortunately I threw them away, but i am quite sure that there was a physical crater not just material residue.

I did not try glass, to be honest, because I was recommended to use the stickers to avoid trouble. Currently I am printing PLA only, ABS is sitting there, but is 3rd party and I don't have a material profile for it. So your experience that for PLA I don't need to use glue sticks for every print and clean the glass for every print in the ktichen?

 

That tip is very useful, thanks!

 

 

 

 

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Personally I use these sheets just for ABS or PP.

PLA sticks very well on a clean glass but I always use a thin layer of glue stick. Make some stripes with the glue stick and use a wet paper towel to distribute the glue to get a very thin layer. There is also no need to clean the glass after each print. I clean my glass and renew the glue layer maybe after 20 or 30 prints, depends how it looks. Sometimes I am lazy and just use a more wet towel and redistribute the glue layer again, which also works 🙂 

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Ahh and regarding 3rd party ABS material, don't worry about the missing profile. You can just use the generic ABS profile and if really needed adjust the print temps. But normally I just use the generic profiles as is.

 

A material profile is not a complicated thing, there are just a few settings like print temp and so on. So don't expect too much magic behind such a profile, often it is really just the print temperature which is also noted on the spool itself if you are not sure and the temperature of the heated bed.

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Posted (edited) · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Well thanks for the advice. With the trick to put the adhesion pad on the back side of the glass I could use both sides. I'll try it when this pad is worn out

Edited by Tigerbeard

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
17 hours ago, Tigerbeard said:

I am using 3M sheets, which is about 0.3mm thick.

One additional note: the UM adhesion sheets have a thickness of about 0.06mm. Using them on the backside of the glass works perfect. With 0.3mm 3M sheets, it's at least worth a try, but I don't know if they're slim enough.

Regards

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

The 3M sheets have to other disadvantages, one quite severe

1. they are smaller than the glass print bed. So depending how you put them on some things might break, e.g. the XY calibration pattern which ich printed at the far back position of the table.

 

2. They can destroy your printhead nozzle.

This is no joke. Yesterday night I lost one after some mistakes in doing manual bed leveling. The distance was too small, so the printhead smeared the filament into the adhesion pad. It created a smooth film offering no adhesion any more but also used the rather rigid rough surface as sanding paper. Since it took me several trials to get the levelling correct, with each test print it sanded off a bit from the printhead nozzle. I ended with an AA0.4 printhead that had a 0.4mm hole some hours before having now a 0.8mm hole and being quite a bit shorter.

 

As a result, for the time being, I am back to Auto Leveling for each print. Destroying the adhesion pads after a few prints is more economical than damaging the print head.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

I have to add another disadvantage. I am not sure if Ultimaker sheets are different, I have not tested them.

 

As describes the nozzles are pressed into the material in the procedure. The larger BB nozzle for PVA is the first and exerts more pressure than the second, PLA nozzle. Thus the "craters" have a different size and thus the height measurements are different for both. The result still passes the Bed levelling without "Head Distance Error" but probable with a low margin.

 

When printing with the sheet again yesterday I had failed prints on PVA to 100%. The first layer just would not stick and the material accumulated around the nozzle. The PLA adhered greatly. I found that the PLA was a tiny bit too flat. With the height error between the heads, the PVA head was far too low. The filament was pushed out to the sides and the nozzle itself scratched away most of the filament making it almost not adhere at all. After the first layer is broken, the resulting parts were really bad.

 

When turned the glass over with the same model and the same settings all worked perfect again...

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Hi Tigerbeard,

I don't like adhesion sheets as I feel they're more of a mess than washing glue stick, but to each their own. There are alternate adhesives specifically for 3d printing that are really easy to clean with just water and work for several prints in a row. I've used magigoo and it's great, even helps removing parts easy if you put it on cold. There's also a brand called dimafix that should do the same thing but I haven't tried them.

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Posted (edited) · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
53 minutes ago, Tigerbeard said:

I am not sure if Ultimaker sheets are different

Hi,

as mentioned above and concluded from your infos, they definitely are different than 3M.

The thickness of 0,06mm is neglible to every calibration tolerance, and they don't get cratered by the nozzles via active levelling.

As @Tomahawk_101 mentioned:

35 minutes ago, Tomahawk_101 said:

to each their own

I for myself just print either on bare glass (with no glue, spray or something else) or, when there is a risk to chipp the glass or there's tendency to warping, UM adhesion sheets. Of course printing on bare glass is more comfortable, while removing a print from a new or barely used adhesion sheet can be a real "pain in the a**".

 

Regards

Edited by Enigma_M4

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

That bare glass finish on the bottom is always satisfying, to me, unless that side should be shown alongside another then I prefer the finish from a layer between the plastic and glass. For PLA I'd agree that bare glass is easier than anything else. I've found its not for everyone though.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Adhesion sheets are useful for certain materials but they are not needed for PLA or PVA, so I don't understand why you want to use it with all the disadvantages.

 

I use a little bit of glue stick, which I distribute with a wet towel to get a very thin layer. Or Magigoo which is basically the same just easier to apply. Dimafix is not recommended for PLA because Dimafix get its advantages with higher bed temps. I use it for ABS when I don't use adhesions sheets.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

If PLA, just use the glass like the printer and profiles have all been designed for. I personally just give a very light spray of 3DLac as it just adds that protection layer for the glass. When it cools prints just pop off and you got a perfect bottom layer.

 

Not sure why someone would have advise you to not print on glass with PLA and to use sheets, If you was printing with say PETG then you might want to look into the sheets because PETG is a filament thats more likely to chip glass.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
36 minutes ago, Smithy said:

So I don't understand why you want to use it with all the disadvantages.

 

Very good question.

 

But first thanks for all the valuable input :-=😄!

 

Interesting you ask that question. To make sense please try to get to a bloody novice p.o.v. After reading the documentation on the web page the glue stick was actually quite a frightening thing for me, no kidding. I had waited many years before getting a FDM printer just because I did not want to tweak a set of 200 parameters for getting a decent print from a home made device (been there done that..). So spending several thousands Euros for that device made sense when it left time to focus on the modelling and the parts instead of the printing process. So every variable potentially affecting print process or quality is a threat. So when I got the tip with the sheets and that they just work without any glue that was reason enough to take them. At the same time other threads hit home: moisture sensitivity is THE major impact which I was not honestly informed about up front. Every system has such troubles (same with Form 1 where the build tank turned out to be the main consumable).

In that light any solution to make "adhesion" not source of build failures was/is very welcome! And they really worked fine - no removing of the glass required, multiple prints possible, removing the print is basically cleaning the platform. And they were said to be usable with any material (did not test it yet).

After several 10th of hours with the device (the initial idea did not really work...), I can say now I am confident enough to know the quality level to expect and I can judge if something is a problem (Newbies can't), so I am relaxed switching to other methods.

 

So honestly, if not for the damage of that procedure (do the bed&heads really have to be warm?) I would still use the mat, just because it was really trouble free so far. Now I have a lot of worries more and no idiot proof guide on the website: best practices on how to remove glue, do I need to do that at all? Or how often? May it accumulate or not? Thicknesstroubles? Does it age & how to tell? Really removing the glass bed all the time? Print failed procedure (redo, keep it, clean it?) Different types of glue for different materials? Yes, all is in the forum. Its a bit an own learning curve on that issue. And if I dump the UM for 6month doing something else, afterwards I would need to start again.... I guess I can say  I am glad I have the device and I am impressed of the results (if they come out unfailed), but I also am glad that I did not join the club sooner.🙃

 

So I thankfully take your experience and try bare glass the next weeks. But since I have ABS and PC waiting, I guess I will see where to get those UM sheets


 

 

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

Glue stick will just wipe off with a wet rag as its a pva glue, same with most sprays like 3dlac, so its easy and clean.

 

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
1 hour ago, Carla_Birch said:

If PLA, just use the glass like the printer and profiles have all been designed for. I personally just give a very light spray of 3DLac as it just adds that protection layer for the glass. When it cools prints just pop off and you got a perfect bottom layer.

 

Not sure why someone would have advise you to not print on glass with PLA and to use sheets, If you was printing with say PETG then you might want to look into the sheets because PETG is a filament thats more likely to chip glass.

Quotes from the Manual

 

From Preparing the print:

or all materials that are supported on the Ultimaker 3 it is also recommended to apply a thin layer of glue (using the glue stick from the Accessory Box) or an adhesion sheet to the glass plate before starting a print. This will make sure that your print adheres well to the glass plate.

 

From Removing the print:

If glue was used on the glass plate, run lukewarm water over the print side of the plate to dissolve the glue. Once the glue is dissolved, it is easier to remove the print. If PVA was used, place the glass plate and print in water to dissolve the PVA as this makes print removal easier

 

This clearly means the standard procedure is to remove the build plate for each print/failed print, run into the kitchen/bathroom and clean it. All not required with the mat.

If that what is written in the manual if never practically done, they shouldn't write it. I only tested the procedure, because someone in the forum wrote to wipe the glue with a wet paper towel. That made a lot more sense than to put a thick layer of glue stick which may be several 100um thick onto the bed. But they did not write that either..

 

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
2 minutes ago, Carla_Birch said:

Glue stick will just wipe off with a wet rag as its a pva glue, same with most sprays like 3dlac, so its easy and clean.

 

Thanks, I hoped so, but I was not sure yet.

 

My first complex print on glass just finished and came out beautifully.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
29 minutes ago, Tigerbeard said:

This clearly means the standard procedure is to remove the build plate for each print/failed print, run into the kitchen/bathroom and clean it. All not required with the mat.

It is also not required with glue stick (thin layer, distributed with a wet towel) The part comes off itself after cooling down, no need to remove the glass, no need to clean the glass, just print the next part.

 

I clean my glass maybe after 50 prints or so, depends how intact the glue layer is. That's it.

 

Clean bare glass is also working, but then you have to ensure it is really clean, no finger tips or something like that and bigger parts tends to warp on the corners. That's the reason why  I always prefer a thin layer of glue, that is worry free and I can also touch the build plate if needed.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker
13 hours ago, Smithy said:

It is also not required with glue stick (thin layer, distributed with a wet towel) The part comes off itself after cooling down, no need to remove the glass, no need to clean the glass, just print the next part.

 

I clean my glass maybe after 50 prints or so, depends how intact the glue layer is. That's it.

 

Clean bare glass is also working, but then you have to ensure it is really clean, no finger tips or something like that and bigger parts tends to warp on the corners. That's the reason why  I always prefer a thin layer of glue, that is worry free and I can also touch the build plate if needed.

Thanks Smithy, I know that now from this thread.

 

My point was - since you had asked - when you believe the manual and do not search the forum, you come to a different conclusion.

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Posted · Auto Leveling destroys my Print Adhesion sticker

There are so many ways to get good results, that it is not so easy to give just one advice. I haven't read the manual, but when you look here in the forum, just for PLA there are several adhesion methods and each is working fine. In many cases there are often several methods to achieve the result, try some of them and then use the one that is comfortable for you and fits your workflow.

 

Anyway, if you have questions or read something you don't understand, just ask here in the forum, we are happy to help and normally we are 24x7 online just like the following the sun principle.

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