Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

[drunkun_munky 0]

http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/9344-company-update/

I think it's fairly clear but if you need a one word reply: No

Thanks =) I didn't want to go through 12 pages XD

 

[bob-hepple 59]

Fair to say Im Disappointed i thought there would be a new printer, thought it would have been the 2 PRO or something, but a mini and a extender is not where i thought it would have gone, does that mean a new 3 wont even happen this year??.

 

[IRobertI 520]

What made you think a 3 was coming out this year? The 2 has barely been around for a year as it is.

 

[Dim3nsioneer 557]

The UM2 dual extrusion is dead... long live the UM2 dual extrusion!

This might be a solution for the tinkerers among you:

What is needed for the dual extrusion?

A complete UM2 hotend -> available in the UM store

A Bowden tube -> available in the UM store (officially for the UMO, but it seems to work for the UM2 as well)

A Feeder including the motor -> currently not available in the UM store but the specs are available on Github; and there are alternative feeder designs... means: print it.

a new firmware: download it at Github, set EXTRUDERS to 2 and compile it!

So except the feeder parts everything is available. And for the missing parts, it might be worth watching the spare parts section of the UM store for the time coming... (you know, some little birds tweet also during the winter... )

However, this would bring the difficulties with it that UM was facing when they started with the UM2 dual extrusion. But remember that dual prints with PLA were actually not a problem...(check the forum, there was an information some time ago about this). And PVA can be printed at even lower temperatures...

 

[bob-hepple 59]

Well Niavity really at the London show you had Chinese companies with dual heads on display and now other companies advising. the fact that the um2 has been modified to take another real and space for 2nd extruder all pointed to dual now that there are other mnf advertising dual head I naturally thought it would be a progression I was obviously Wrong. From a novice like me the weak link in printing is the supports and with PVA I thought the gap was closed.

Again a novice opinion but still disappointed and still looking at other machines BUT NOT Chinese.

[chrisr 18]

so putting something like an retractable watercooled E3D in the second place would be your suggestion(if it doesn't work I won't blame you...)

-something like

 

That's pretty impressive, is there more video of more of it? :-)

 

[solid-print-3d 30]

That brings up a good point.

 

Is there a chance to see what the R&D Team has tried, to not make the same mistakes again?

 

Why can't we see any videos of what the "open source" R&D department came up with? As far as what issues they were running into? This might help us better visualize how to address these issues... this is an open source community, ISN'T IT?!

With the new website (totally confusing), the Makerbot-like marketing (mini-regular and large), the empty promises (buy an ultimaker, we promise a dual extrusion upgrade)....... Ultimaker just doesn't seem like the Ultimaker I fell in love with. Combine that with an obvious design flaw with the insulator deforming quickly (and charging outrageous amount for replacements), I'd have to agree with others that Ultimaker is a victim of there own success.

Their one redeeming trait is the warranty service. Living in America, Simon(illuminarti) has helped me out immensely! I'm sure he has a couple of people helping him out, but his attention to my machines problems and getting me up and running again is Ultimaker's saving grace in my book.

As I've stated previously in posts, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I'm hoping that my honesty will be heard.

 

[Anders Olsson 136]

The software already supports dual extrusion, as the UMO does have an (experimental) dual extrusion kit. Removing it would mean that those people can't use their product anymore.

That being said; the new version of cura will actually make it more easy to code (and maintain) aditions like multiple nozzles. So even if we would no longer support it, it wouldn't be that hard for anyone in the comunity to pick it up.

 

Ok, that's good news, thank you for your reply!

That means I hereby accept the challenge to invent a properly working dual extrusion for the UM2 :smile:

From the information so far it seems like Ultimaker did not consider nozzle lift systems or changed heater block/nozzle design to be an option?

In that case I think the chances of getting flawless dual extrusion appears slim in my opinion.

May I ask if the dual extrusion design limitations are due to the CE-approval rather than due to technical difficulties?

Anyway, I have some ideas, but it will take a while, and I hope more people see this as a challenge rather than a disappointment.

That video of the water cooled dual head was interesting, but videos of dual color printing would kind of be necessary to determine if that is a way forward.

I imagine that a much more simple nozzle lift system, working a bit differently, might work better actually.

 

[Labern 774]

It would be nice to see it as a challenge If I had the time. Not all jobs allow you to work on such things

[nallath 1,120]

I'll go into more detail on what we did next wednesday.

 

[sensebellum 2]

Haven't read this in years, came to this conclusion a little late in the thread but my disappointment is fresh.

Like others have said, this was advertised and promised long ago. I understand it may working with the Original but that's why I bought the version 2: because of it's future ready tendencies. I feel a little bad I convinced my fiends to get this one because of the dual extrusion feature too...

It feels a little like those new iPads - same thing in a taller/flatter/smaller package - when the real time and effort could have been true innovation. Like in the feeder, or dual extrusion. Or, in the Apple analogy, when gestures were introduced.

I think that the framework is solid but remove the feeder and hot end and start fresh. Use the existing rails and pulleys for the hot end and the existing mounts for the feeder and build off of those. It is possible, I'm sure there are more ways to do it once you abandon the current model and make a different version that scraps some but doesn't leave you with an entirely blank slate. Clearly others have been doing it, it is present in the first version, and it must be made before any fabled UM3 comes out. See a working kit here: http://3dprint.com/31460/dual-extruder-ultimaker/

That being said I wish I would have realized this long ago and will be trying to tackle implementing this on the side. Thanks for everyone's super thorough discussion.

 

[DidierKlein 729]

About that link we are still waiting for a video of it working, they claim it works with ABS, but have technical issues with PLA... and these are just claims, we haven't heard anything for over a month now (it was claimed to be ready for december).

 

[IRobertI 520]

It feels a little like those new iPads - same thing in a taller/flatter/smaller package - when the real time and effort could have been true innovation. Like in the feeder, or dual extrusion. Or, in the Apple analogy, when gestures were introduced.

 

Don't assume that work isn't being done on more than just "taller/flatter". They're experimenting with a lot of different things. Some sensible things, some wacky things that will likely never see the light of day, and one thing in particular that I haven't seen in person yet but sounds very cool.

And before people say "but why don't they show it to us?". Well, like I said, some of it will likely never become something they release (but they could still learn from it), other things are far from ready and they don't need people asking about it every week etc etc. I just don't want you guys to think they're just sitting around on their asses, that's not true at all.

 

[fabi580 0]

 

@ChrisR

You may wat to look at: http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/7873-ultimaker-2-umbau-auf-2te-d%C3%BCse/page-3 but it's in german

 

[tyscof 6]

Okay thats clear, but they are defiantly working on it and it will become available?

Thats I don't have it right away isn't a disaster for me, but it is important to me that it will come over time.

This because of the future development of 3D printing and to be ready for this future!

 

Yep

 

[gadgeteer 0]

I am afraid i have to correct this: NOPE

to quote Ultimaker at their Company News:

 

// Dual extrusion

In the breaking dawn of 2015 decision has been made by Ultimaker not to continue developing a dual extruder upgrade for the current Ultimaker 2.

This is really frustrating, since not few of us had purchased the U2 (instead of the U1) with the (already in 2013!) announced upgrade to a dual extruderversion "soon to be available".

So please Ultimakerteam, at least for the sake of your reputation, make this more/better known to everyone - and of course in every part of the forum related to this topic here.

Example: iGO3D, a quite big/important Seller in Germany, has STILL a "2nd extruder Option" in their description of the U2.

 

[pws 0]

Hmmm... the dual extruder option was one of the pro arguments made us go with Ultimaker 2 two weeks ago...

The engineer's argument is understandable, but I would like to see a "Plan B" / another approach to fulfill our needs for a 2nd filament

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Dim3nsioneer 557]

Check my post no. 231 for a plan B 'supported by Ultimaker'...

 

[gadgeteer 0]

Check my post no. 231 for a plan B 'supported by Ultimaker'...

 

This is definitely no Plan B since it obviously doesn't work (by oh so many reasons) and i doubt this is "supported by Ultimaker".

Otherwise the Ultimakerteam wouldn't had struggle for over a year to find a working solution. Don't you think? Just installing some parts on the Standard Head which comes with the U2 (already holes in it..) just doesn't work.

 

[LePaul 321]

I bought my Ultimaker kit (original) and the second extruder option. I've been excited to see dual extruders in action, like other 3D printers have. But in the year or so i have had my kit, I decided to wait on installing it until I saw how it worked for others. Well, I haven't seen anyone post any impressive dual extruder prints. They have all had some issues with "marbling" and other complications.

So I am not terribly surprised the Ultimaker 2 ran into problems making it work with the existing hardware.

And as others have posted, the company does have a problem with being honest. i got burned early on, buying my Ultimaker kit only to discover the Ultimaker 2 was released 8 days later...which is what I would have really preferred to have. But since I bought a "kit", no refunds. Just a smug "Sorry" and told that's how Apple does things (in how they don't announce when new models come out).

While I like my Ultimaker for the prints it can do....I don't think I will be making any future purchases. I enjoy the community support. But the company puzzles me.

 

[Dim3nsioneer 557]

i doubt this is "supported by Ultimaker".

 

That's why I put some quote signs there... of course it is not officially supported. But parts needed for that tweak might be made available by UM.

 

Otherwise the Ultimakerteam wouldn't had struggle for over a year to find a working solution. Don't you think? Just installing some parts on the Standard Head which comes with the U2 (already holes in it..) just doesn't work.

 

As far as I know (and I was following the topic quite closely), the issue was a thermal one with both hotends heating to the max temperature (260°C). I remember Daid mentioning somewhere that it actually worked for dual-PLA extrusion. That means it should e.g. also work for PLA and PVA. Remains the issue with the second nozzle hitting the print. There, Daid recently published an experimental plugin to switch the idle nozzle to a lower temperature. That means the nozzle shrinks a bit which might help to avoid collisions. It does on the UMO.

The reason why UM does not officially support a second nozzle is that it does not work for any settings a single nozzle is capable of. Any UM staff please correct me if I got something wrong.

 

[gadgeteer 0]

Will finally stop following this now, after over a year of following news and discussions closely.

I personally want to use a 3D printer to do some creatve/useful work, not to fumble around with the machinery/the technical concept. Others may have fun with that - go ahead. Wish you seriously.all the best.

So i am going with the official/disappointing (after a year of "soon to be available" promises) statement. Although i am happy with my U2 as it is i will probably gather/save some money for another printersystem/company for the service/products/ideas i have in mind.

 

[tinkergnome 927]

I'll go into more detail on what we did next wednesday.

 

:?:

Have i missed this...?

Or is there still something...

 

[nallath 1,120]

Oh right yeah. My bad. Forgot about the topic.

It's not Ultimaker as a whole that wants to control information. I don't believe that the 'old' way of doing business (A big company that only sends information that has been polished until there isn't a single bit of soul / authenticity left) is the right way to do business. Especially not for us.

As you guys might have guessed from my posts and those of Daid, the dual extrusion has been a pain in the behind for quite some time. It was promised by some people when it wasn't clear that it was even going to work at all, let alone work well (The first promise was made for june / juli in 2014, at which point all our R&D resources were on fixing a lot of the problems with the um2). That deadline could never ever have been reached.

The second deadline was a bit more optimistic, but was, from our end, in no way intended that it would guarantee a product. Most R&D things can -never- guarantee a product. You can only strive to reach it and hope that it's possible within acceptable bounds (usability, price, etc).

In this case, it's just not. The holy grail of printing, the solvable support, is a complete and utter nightmare. PVA degrades freakisly quick. So quick, that even when the nozzle is at standby mode of +-180 degrees (which is needed so the nozzle doesn't tip prints) you can make maybe a single print before the nozzle is ruined.

Even with the nozzle clearing (on which we spent insane amounts of time), the path optimization and all the other ideas that we tried (and failed to get working) we were not able to get prints that had about 75-100% of the quality with a single extruder. Reaching 75>% is possible, but it needs a lot of calibration of the machine, a lot of knowledge about the machine and very precise settings. Even most of our engineers (who I guess are experts on the field of 3d printing) were unable to reach reliable prints several times in a row.

Is there a solution to this problem? Yes. Obviously there is. There are quite a few things that we haven't tried, because they would require a fundamental redesign of what is out there (Nozzle lifting, leaving one of the nozzles in the corner, etc). This is simply not feasible as an upgrade kit.

I don't like how this communication went and i very much dislike that I was not allowed to discuss how we, from R&D reached the conclusion that it wasn't going to happen. I don't fear discussions, nor am I afraid to explain / defend our decision. I even believe we must be able to do so (If we are unable to defend it by using arguments, the decision is wrong!).

I do understand the frustration, but as i've said many times before; Show me a printer that can do the dual material well. I've not seen one. There is a reason for this. People have unrealistic expectations of dual extrusion. This is maybe caused by what Ultimaker has been saying about it and maybe by a lot of other people trying to sell more printers. But none of this changes the fact that it just doesn't work.

I'll try to answer your questions about this, even though I wasn't officially involved in this project in the first place, because I believe our community is as much a part of what we do as that I am.

 

[Anders Olsson 136]

Is there a solution to this problem? Yes. Obviously there is. There are quite a few things that we haven't tried, because they would require a fundamental redesign of what is out there (Nozzle lifting, leaving one of the nozzles in the corner, etc). This is simply not feasible as an upgrade kit.

 

If one would come up with a simple and reliable nozzle lift+valve function, would that solve the main issues with dual extrusion?

Or are there other major problems like nozzle alignment, leveling, software constraints and similar that will still make dual extrusion a pain to work with?