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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

No talk about the UM2's dual head development for over a month now!!?

 

"It's darkest just before dawn..." is the applicable Americain proverb...

:-P

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

*dun dun duuun*

 

 

Paul Watzlawick:
One cannot not communicate

 

;)

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

I'd love to tell everything, but there are limits on how much we're allowed to share. So, no news, sorry.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Harma from Ultimaker "promised" it would be out 2015 first quarter. So they still have 2 months.

I often have to keep secrets but I can tell you this: they have not shipped me a dual extrusion setup (sometimes Ulitmaker sends me things like this early to test). So I suspect it won't be available until the very end of the quarter. In a month you can ask me if I have a dual extrusion upgrade kit and if I am silent... draw your own conclusions.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

I have to say that I am quite curious as to how Ultimaker is going to solve this.

Since the UM2Go and the UM2Extend does not seem to have any changes in the print head I kind of wonder if there will be any changes in the hardware at all to fit the second extruder?

Are we just talking about a more durable PTFE-spacer and very carefully set retraction parameters, combined with wiping tower or similar?

I had the impression that in order to get the dual head printing good enough for Ultimaker to release it we would be talking about a more complex redesign including a nozzle valve and a nozzle lift system.

In fact I have been thinking about designing something like that now when I am finished with the custom heater blocks :smile:

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Yeah I have a um2 that i love but really want the dual extrusion feature, would love to have seen it on the um2 extended. I purchased a solidoodle workbench for the dual extruders and size.... that was a mistake all around though...

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Soo... Sander just posted this:

http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/9344-company-update/?p=90597

Specifically stating:

"In the breaking dawn of 2015 decision has been made by Ultimaker not to continue developing a dual extruder upgrade for the current Ultimaker 2."

Seems it has to do with an inevitable loss of print quality...

Frankly, I think it is a way better decision than pushing some half finished solution to marked, which will just lead to even more user frustration, and as he also writes:

"...we think the route to a dual material print is not yet as simple as it should be. This will give an overload on our support team, which we will not be able to handle at the moment."

So, IMHO, well done Ultimaker... It seems you are (finally, some would probably say) starting to take your responsibility seriously... Sometimes, that requires tough decisions like this one...

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

I agree with you it's a wise decision. I'm disappointed that they didn't find a solution that works but in the meantime having seen a couple of dual extrusion printers in action i really think it's better to keep one head with awesome quality than two heads with bad or barely acceptable quality.

It's not something that you would use in most cases so for me it's not a big loss. I guess we'll have to wait that the materials evolve before having something that is more usable, it seems that HIPS or PVA is not as simple to print anyway...

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Daid made a pretty good post about the print quality of dual extrusion a while ago. That shows exactly what the problems are and why we wont release the um2 dual extrusion kit.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Also disappointed but I appreciate the honesty.

Just a thought - my interest in the dual extrusion was for different materials, ie keep one for PLA and the other for ABS. Has anyone considered a mechanism to have two nozzles with the ability to perhaps mechanically switch between the two, thus moving one up out of the way?

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

with the ability to perhaps mechanically switch between the two, thus moving one up out of the way?

 

That's basically what is needed because with the current design you have two problems: unused nozzle is always dripping, and the unused head scars the walls and surfaces of the part.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

And if it's cold, it can knock your print from the platform.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

it seems that HIPS or PVA is not as simple to print anyway...

 

No it isn't.

HIPS printing isn't that hard, but printing is a bit nasty (bit more then ABS) and the solvent is super nasty. So that's not a real route.

PVA works, sort of, when it does not totally jam and destroys your nozzle.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Crap, that was exactly what I suspected would happen. :sad:

I really need that dual extrusion, a well working one, for lab projects.

In fact it dual extrusion was one reason I bought the Ultimaker 2, as I probably mentioned before.

Anyway, not much to do about it it I guess.

I have one important question though:

- Does this mean that future software will not support UM2 dual extrusion, not even for experimental purposes?

In that case I will just have to give up my ideas on how to solve the nozzle valve/lift system for the UM2 and go for another brand.

If you keep supporting software options to use the UM2 in experimental mode for dual extrusion though, I will continue working on this, since my boss is willing to pay for some workshop time for testing my ideas.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Is there a chance to see what the R&D Team has tried, to not make the same mistakes again?

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

As I understand it the development was not for nothing. It may be used for a completely new machine; most probably a machine which comes as a dual extruder machine right from the start. But only when the guys at Geldermalsen think it is ready.

The key to a successful dual or multi extruder system is most probably the development of a retractable hotend (i.e. the hotend itself is lifted by something like a millimeter; as e.g. Foehnsturm has built for his UMO).

I still see some chance to get the dual extrusion running properly on the UMO as the hotend there has some significant length change at temperature changes. If I only had more time I would immediately start working on the dual extrusion again.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

The software already supports dual extrusion, as the UMO does have an (experimental) dual extrusion kit. Removing it would mean that those people can't use their product anymore.

That being said; the new version of cura will actually make it more easy to code (and maintain) aditions like multiple nozzles. So even if we would no longer support it, it wouldn't be that hard for anyone in the comunity to pick it up.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

Is there a chance to see what the R&D Team has tried, to not make the same mistakes again?

 

We do have an experimental design that works on the UM2 with the UM2 hotends. But, it does not provide the best quality prints, and you run into big problems when the 2nd nozzle is cold. Pretty sure Martijn will share the small addon you need to print for this soon.

To get proper dual extrusion, you need to re-design the whole printer head. And dual-extrusion is a step towards PVA printing. And PVA printing, that's where the holy grail is. So that's where you need to design for.

As on the software side, as Nallath says, software has dual-extrusion already (it has for years actually). But lots of things can be improved there. However with the lack of proper working dual-extrusion machines, there is little work done on this area.

 

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Posted · Ultimaker 2 Dual extrusion

so putting something like an retractable watercooled E3D in the second place would be your suggestion(if it doesn't work I won't blame you...)

-something like

 

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