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wallan

Any advice on how to get ABS to stick to the glass

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Got mu Ultimaker 2 some weeks ago and PLA printing worked more or less fine straight out of the box.

Then I tried ABS.

I really like the ABS because of it's matte finish and also because it handled overhangs a lot better.

However. So far I have only managed to print 1 item in 10 without it warping and coming lose or just coming lose anyway. As an estimate in the later case.

When the print height starts to reach the width of the base it gets lose.

I'm printing on a glue surface with default printer settings for ABS.

I have tried to turn of the Fans witch went a little better but not by much.

I found raft to be best and I also enlarged the raft getting it to stick a little better but still not god enough.

Any advice?

I can also add that I tried to increase the height of the raft but the result of that was that the last layer of the raft not stuck to  the layer below so even though the raft stayed in place the print together with the top raft layer come lose.

Edited by TheDeugd

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I tried an enlarged Raft. Did not try the Brim as it is seems so fragile compared to a Raft.

I use the Brim for PLA print as it is enough in that case and is easy to remove.

So when switching to ABS it was the first i tried.

I did however not enlarge it.

But. Considering the way the ABS came lose I don't think a wider Brim would had made any difference.

However, if it is the recommended solution i will of course try it.

I'm printing using the glue.

 

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I remember reading illuminarti talking about how he uses a wet paper towel to dissolve the glue a bit and then lets it all dry up. I don't know if this would help your specific adherence problem; what I'm imagining is that by actively dissolving the glue to the glass you get better adhesion of the glue to the glass, this substrate layer also provides good adherence to the extruded plastic effectively coupling the two. Anyway just a though, illuminarti will likely shed more light on the subject.

I found his post:

http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/3945-braddocks-grinding-um2-extruder-thread/?p=31203

 

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I haven't used ABS myself but I keep reading about people using a slurry of ABS and Acetone as glue. Apparently that works well. Don't know the specifics though I'm afraid but it should be easy enough to find with google.

 

That's a really interesting idea! Hot damn: here's a link http://www.instructables.com/id/100-Warp-Free-MakerBot-3D-Printing/

 

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Ah...

I have made slurry of ABS a long time ago when using it as a glue.

That is an interesting thought.

It will smell like hell but might work.

I will have to get it really thin dough so that the head wont hit it.

And a wet towel yeah.

When I realized the glue was water based I figured out that I could use a sponge to redistribute it.

Works like a charm.

With PLA at least.

Can add that I use a cooling spray on the prints and they more or less pops of.

Well, at least for PLA.

ABS as you understand pops of by itself.

Gonna try that slurry thing but I suppose my girlfriend will freak out.

 

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I'm only printing ABS on the UM2. I find brim really effective, 15-20 lines will do it. Keep the bed at 97-100, but will depend on your exact ABS material. I print the first layer at 105 then reduce using tweakatZ. Keeping the bed too hot will cause a lot of contract in the first 10 or 15 layers, so I don't recommend it. Still experimenting with extrusion temp, but 250 works well. Print speed 30-35mm/s, first layer 20. Really squish the 1st layer in. Should be a continuous glassy surface on the bottom of the print. Glue stick also works well, especially when used with brim. Don't let the brim get too thick, ideally 0.1-0.15mm, that way it creates a flexible air seal. If it's too thick it will also be prone to warping and will no longer act as a seal.

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Should be a continuous glassy surface on the bottom of the print.

 

The point of brim - well first you have to understand why PLA and ABS stick to glass. Apparently it is the van-der-wal force or something like that - but it requires that no air get under. The brim isn't so much to hold it down but more to keep the air leaking in.

Also how hot was your bed? If you keep the bed above the glass temp of ABS then it can't warp. Typically people keep the bottom 5 or 10mm of the plastic above the glass temp. If it is too warm it will sag. 100C is typical for ABS.

 

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I've printed large ABS parts on my UM2 with these settings--

80C bed temperature

50mm/sec speed

250C head temperature

Fans turned off

Glue stick on the glass.

It took me a bunch of tries, but found that you really have to get your bed leveled really nice and tight.

I watch the first layer print, and tune with the screws to make sure the ABS layer is really stuck to the glue layer.

Keep an eye on it for about 15 min. You can tell if it's going to come off or stay adhered.

 

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The ABS slurry (google "ABS juice") is relatively popular. Printing on Kapton tape has its fans also. I hear PET tape is also good.

This guy seems to have some good advice (scroll down to the 'How do I get my filament to stick and STAY stuck?'

http://makergeeks.blogspot.com/2013/12/great-3d-printing-gift-packages-on-sale.html?view=sidebar

Seems the rule is YMMV and stick to the way that you can get to work.....

 

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I just received my UM the other day and it came only with ABS so I have only been able to run a few prints.

As I am tweaking things I notice when printing ABS with a layer of .12, weather I do a raft or not it always broke loose from the heated build platform. But with a layer of .15 it was all good. Im using RepG software with skin50.

Also in the G-code I paged down till I got past the rafting and 1-2 layers of infill and manually added a line to the program to lower the HBP temp to 105.

M109 S105 T1

for the print I was working with its the twisted heart box on thingverse

100% Infill

.18 Layer (anything less and the print head drags through the print)

1 Shell

55 mm/s feed

125 mm/s rapid

225c Extruder temp

115 HBP

My next issue though is I bought a new laptop to run the printer. As it turns out Windows8 does not like Cura

So I have to run RepG on my win7 desktop

 

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ABS glass temp is 100C. room temp is 20C. It's those delta 80C that cause problems (not the 245 to 100C). PLA glass temp is about 60C for a delta of 40C or half that of ABS. Both have almost identical density versus temperature graphs which are both very linear even through melting points etc. This means PLA has about half the shrinkage issues of ABS.

Getting your ambient temp to 60C will cut your shrinkage in half (100-60 is delta of 40C) and make it as easy to print as PLA.

The problem is the stepper motors - they are quite tough and can definitely handle 40C and possibly handle 60C. I believe they are spec'ed to get up to a case temperature of 80C so at 60C they probably need fans.

Personally I would aim for 40C which is a huge improvement. Although I have never needed a heated enclosure for ABS - instead I just go for the "make it stick like hell" method which works great for ABS (hairspray, glass at 110C, brim).

 

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Once and for all, a quick and easy method for getting your ABS to stick.

Over time, I have developed this method, and it works 100% of the time. It has zero waste, and is the most cost effective way I have found to apply a thin film of ABS to the glass.

What you are about to see may be disturbing to some viewers. Viewer discretion is advised.

First Print a Hockey puck-like block in ABS using any method you can to get the ABS to stick at least half way decent. Or you can use a failed print that has a flat surface. You'll also need a can of Acetone.

photo 1

For the sake of explaining the next step, I'm using a teaspoon. This is about how much acetone you'll want to put on the plate. I do not recommend actually using a teaspoon, but you should get a rough idea of the amount I'm using here. You can decide what you'd like to use on your own. I use the lid for the acetone can...

Apply some acetone to the plate... just pour it on slowly.

photo 2a

 

Grab your hockey puck and play a little air hockey with yourself. The puck will float on the thin layer of acetone, and will glide around smoothly. Work the puck into circles or back and forth motions, whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

photo 3

Continue to move the puck around in the general area of the print.

This is the important part! When the puck starts to feel like its slowing down, slide the puck away from the print area. Do not try to work the puck once the acetone begins to evaporate. If you missed a spot, simply put another drop of Acetone on the missed spot and touch up that spot. When you are done (~10 seconds total time should have elapsed)

it should look like this

photo 4

 

It does NOT have to look pretty! The first layer will melt into the "slurry".

 

After you've tried this a couple of times, you'll be able to prep a bed for the next ABS print in under 15 seconds, and there's no mess, and no wasted acetone. No dirty tools, no special jars, no prep work, etc... You cannot do this with the bed HOT. You can do this with the bed warm. The puck lasts a very long time. The acetone lasts a very long time. You do not have to remove the glass. I just pulled the glass for photographic purposes.

 

Since the first layer melts into the film, you'll still get the glass finish every time.

photo5

You can also do some interesting effects, such as creating marbled look by using a black puck with a white print.

photo6

If you need an .stl of the puck I've used, send me a PM and I'll shoot one your way. I'm using a 40mm puck here. I've tried a couple different designs, but this one works well, so I just run with it

P.S. It should be noted that that is a pretty ugly example I've posted, but you can imagine holding an iphone, keeping the glass from moving, and moving the puck around is a tad difficult.

 

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You make it seam like you'd be huffing large quantities of acetone out of a bag :p

While it's true that some may be affected by acetone fumes, fumes are not a problem. If they are, you are using too much acetone.

Millions of woman everyday use acetone to remove finger nail polish. They end up outliving men. Pretty sure acetone's not going to kill you. :)

In my experience, glue sticks don't come close to what the ABS film can provide.

 

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DO NOT use nail polish remover! I was just making an analogy as to the health effects, and woman using nail polish remover.

In the states, they sell it in 1 qt. sizes, and 1 gallon sizes in any hardware store.

You can prep about 190 small prints with 1 qt. (about 1 teaspoon per prep)

I've used it for 15+ years and I don't, and I don't , and I don't have any lasting side iffectcts :p

Seriously, if you're concerned with acetone vapors being harmful, don't use it, or set a fan up in the room to dilute the vapors quickly. In small amounts and done right, you should not be breathing in concentrated vapors. You will probably smell a slight odor, but again, as long as your head is not inside the print chamber, you'll be fine.

Hairspray and Glue sticks DO work, but if you have that print that just keep warping and/or popping free from the bed, acetone is the best solution many users have found.

MSDS http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927062

 

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3276003L  49598.1404205174.280.280

this hairspray works good too, but it's not recommended for large flat objects that will want to warp. I spray it onto a paper towel, let it puddle a little on the paper towel, and wipe the glass down like I'm cleaning it with windex. This Hairspray can be purchased at General Dollar stores in the States.

printing IC3D ABS , 245 C, 90mm/s using the hairspray, bed 90 C

My Movie

I might upload a test to see just how fast it will put down the first layer and still stick.

This is for a large project, and I have to print 20 of these. They take 3.5 hours each, but making the first layer start off at 80+mm/s I am able to cut it to just under 2 each, saving me 30 hours!

So you see, this purple hairspray I keep recommending really works miracles. I have tried it on larger, bulky pieces but I did have some warping. So I use this method for detailed pieces becasue there is no film to remove when I pull the print. The Detailed pieces come off nice and clean. I use the acetone method for large warp-prone pieces.

great for those printing small peices that are concerned about acetone vapors. Keep in mind, I have about 6 or 7 cans of hairspray around here (5 girls in the house) but THIS brand is the only one that performs like this. Thinking about contacting Aqua Net and rebranding some of their cans to read "Super 3d printing adhesive". :p

 

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