Feature request: 3D mouse support

[kmanstudios 1,120]

3 hours ago, GreyArea said:

I refer to my original statement of “I don’t know why it’s so hard”...particularly the “I don’t know” part. I’m going to see if that sxvjoy interface still works in Elite...but I’m also going to see if it is capable of transferring the commands to Cura...

I get that. One does not learn if one does not question.

[GreyArea 1]

Since sxvjoy is now quite old (2015) it's possible it's been superseded...3DConnexion have a file under game controllers called a KMJ Emulator...but that similarly receives no input. The spacemouse works perfectly on my system with the demos though.

 

[ahoeben 1,948]

Realise that even if you get the spacemouse to emulate a joystick, Cura does not handle that either.

[GreyArea 1]

No, but if it can emulate a joystick, it can (should be able to) emulate anything. It might not have the analog sensitivity that the native device has...but there's no point having cream if you have no strawberries to put it on...

[kmanstudios 1,120]

If the program does not provide for the support of a joystick, then it will not work. Just like if a program does not support the keyboard, it will not type or use arrow keys or any keyboard actions.

 

All people are saying is that, at this time, and probably not in the near future, there is no support for the 3D mouse in Cura. Until it is programmed in Cura, it will not work. And, I would think that would not be a high priority.

 

Would it be cool? Absolutely. That is why we voice support for the idea.

 

Is it practical? Probably not at this time with other, more needful things to provide for.

[P3D 46]

And another "bump" for this thread!

 

I use a SpaceMouse for nearly every program where I have to manipulate 3D objects (UG/NX, PreForm,...), and if Cura could support this, it would make a great difference - right now, it takes many mouse movements to get a job done I can do in PreForm in a quarter of the time.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

I believe you can set the 3D mouse to do navigation and access functions via virtual mouse clicks and drags, I have a space mouse that I do not use at the moment. But, if I remember correctly, I had the thing to where all my 3D programs worked the same as far as navigation goes and clicks and drags. But it has been a while.

[P3D 46]

There is no such emulation with the SpaceMouse I have. Anyway, if the PreForm developers can do it, I see no reason why Cura shouldn't support 3D mouses. Especially considering their printers are in the same price range now with the UM3 Extended and the S5.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

5 minutes ago, P3D said:

Especially considering their printers are in the same price range now with the UM3 Extended and the S5.

Kinda not following that.

 

With all due respect to the Cura Dev Team, in case you have not noticed that the last few versions have been less than stellar.

 

Would it not be more prudent to actually focus on the stability and slicing robustness rather than further splintering efforts at this stage?

 

Kinda not seeing any other slicers jumping on that bandwagon as well, even the paid for ones.

 

Are you using the 3DXWare?

[P3D 46]

I don't quite follow *you* on this. Please also refrain from passive-aggressive comments like "in case you did not notice".

 

There's nothing wrong in a feature request, also the people working on the slicing engine need not neccessarily be those who write the code for 3D mouse support - could well be an internship project. I don't see why you seem to be almost enraged by my feature request. The comparison to PreForm is quite reasonable IMHO. Ultimaker and Formlabs have the same target audience - companies and not-on-a-tight-budget enthusiasts.

 

You don't seem to be quite aware of how much faster and less frustrating it is to work with a real SpaceMouse, with native support by the program. No stupid shift-click moving anymore, no accidentally displacing your already sliced object, etc.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

3 hours ago, P3D said:

Please also refrain from passive-aggressive comments like "in case you did not notice".

I do not know what your experience has been or version of Cura you are on. So, I would appreciate you:

1. Not put intentions into my words

2. Refrain from bad psychotherapy accusations.

 

3 hours ago, P3D said:

I don't see why you seem to be almost enraged by my feature request.

See above. I am not enraged. I am befuddled as to why people constantly want things before a robust and solid experience. And, if this is what you would consider enraged, then I guess this would explain your above comment.

 

3 hours ago, P3D said:

You don't seem to be quite aware of how much faster and less frustrating it is to work with a real SpaceMouse, with native support by the program.

Ummm, yeah, that is a bit of an broad assumption by you, but by this point in your reply, I would have guessed no less. Or, did this slip by you whilst looking for reasons to be offended:

7 hours ago, kmanstudios said:

I have a space mouse that I do not use at the moment.

 

And while you seemed to be too busy being replying quite negatively towards myself, you definitely missed this:

7 hours ago, kmanstudios said:

Are you using the 3DXWare?

 

 

Here is the thing: I just have a different opinion. I stated the opinion, based without assumption of your Cura usage. You may not agree with the wording, but my intent ws to balance out a feature request that takes away from what should be a core functionality that has seen a slight bit of regression lately.

 

Profiles are still dodgy, Memory leaks are still an issue. The list goes on.

 

That is all there was to it. Take it however you wish. But, I stated an opinion, no more or less valid than yours and got upbraided for trying to say that that I had mine working a while back, got lectured on how it works and scolded because you did not like my wording.

 

So, yes, it is ok to have a feature request. Same as the people wanting to turn Cura into a hybrid modeler/slicer, etc.

 

Or, are your opinions the only one that count?

[GreyArea 1]

This is an old argument. There are merits to both so please be civil guys.

On the one side, kman is saying there are bigger problems. On the other, p3D (and me) would find a lot of benefit from SpaceMouse support (in my case I have a disability that affects my right hand side, being able to use the space mouse AND my (limited) ability with a right hand mouse is better than either right hand alone or learning to use a left hand mouse exclusively).

kman is right, there are bigger problems. P3D and me (I would humbly suggest) are also right - it would be a very sad world if you were not allowed to buy nice furniture until you had built the perfect house. Or if nobody was ever allowed to sing because one child still had cancer.

There is room for both, surely? If Cura put ten people on to solving the big issues, and one or two onto a better, more professional interface...I don't think P3D or I would complain..

Edited December 5, 2018 by GreyArea

[GreyArea 1]

As to 3DXWare...it's...not great. I don't blame P3D for not knowing he even has it (you probably do) and even if he does, I couldn't advise he use it; it is extremely limited compared to native support...button clicks and menu selects are all very well, but the interface it provides to use them is intrusive and the best use of the spacemouse is (imho) to simply slave it to camera control...the (traditional) mouse interacts with the model, the spacemouse controls where I "stand" to look at it.

In terms of splintering efforts...I cannot believe that adding support for the spacemouse is as onerous a job as fixing the memory leaks and slicer etc...I'm almost certain the code that drives it must be very generic, given how many 3D packages do in fact support it - I'm trying to avoid phrases like "copy and paste" and "how hard can it be?"...but...well, I guess I didn't avoid them very effectively...

Edited December 5, 2018 by GreyArea

[GreyArea 1]

I just "gender assumed" on P3D...apologies if you are not or do not identify as male...

[kmanstudios 1,120]

55 minutes ago, GreyArea said:

As to 3DXWare...it's...not great.

Worked well for me. I had all my programs synced to the same movements and clicks.

 

So, I agree that in a great world, it would be nice to have. I just see so much getting loaded onto the UM plate of requirements, So, I do not subscribe to the perfect house analogy. I subscribe to the 'do not put great furniture into a leaky house' analogy. Things can get ruined.

 

When the things already in the software are working as expected, then yeah, these things would be great.

 

And, as I have stated before, just because I do not agree with some things, people should not assume I am saying it is bad. That seems to be a common issue when people are not told how great things would be if their idea is incorporated.

[GreyArea 1]

kmanstudios, I know you meant no harm, but when someone says "I have this problem with X"...the reply "My X is working just fine" is probably THE most unhelpful of all. 🙂

A leaky roof would damage the furniture...I fail to see how a memory leak could damage a spacemouse...but...I guess for now we agree to differ.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

2 hours ago, GreyArea said:

"My X is working just fine" is probably THE most unhelpful of all.

Actually it is an invitation to work together when it follows "have you tried 'this''.  There is a difference in approach when something works with person a and not with person b. Why not work together to see if it can be solved without inside interference?

 

Basically, since it is working here and not there, are you just willing to give up? I have no idea what you have tried. You have no idea what I have tried. But hey, you are allowed to not explore differences, It may not even help, but would you not rather try and see?

[P3D 46]

@kmanstudios: Wow, so much offendedness... you know, if you write "in case you didn't notice" to someone who is quite active on this forum, has filed a bug against Cura 3.5 and discussed it in several threads, also threads where you were directly involved, it might not come over quite as innocent as you try to make it out to be.

 

If you want to politely disagree, there are much better ways than writing "kinda not following you", meaning more or less "your logic is faulty". Please explain to me how my expectations of the Slicer software that comes with a €6500 printer should be less than those for one coming with a $4000 printer. 

 

To be very clear here, I am not demanding anything, but I do not like to have a perfectly reasonable feature request played down needlessly. If one were to wait for perfect program stability (and especially no memory leaks, which are notoriously hard to track down), then there would be no new features at all for the next 5 years, in which case it would be best to ditch Cura and go for another slicer. 

 

Once again: The people working on the slicing engine and its stability need not be the same ones working on new features, and they most probably aren't, if things like the gyroid infill are any indication.

 

Equating 3D mouse support to incorporating modeling features into a slicer (vastly different things, both in scope of work needed and in relevance to the core program purpose) doesn't help to make your case more convincing at all. 

 

PreForm, by the way, did gain its SpaceMouse support after users requested it on the Forum.

 

You not using your space mouse may very well be the reason why you don't see the need for support in Cura (BTW, I did NOT miss this). I use it almost every day for modeling and in PreForm. Then having to use Cura is frustrating when I have to check the layer view or even when orienting models - precisely because of the lack of SpaceMouse support. 

 

I did miss that 3DXWare link, thanks for that - I will try to get our IT department to install that software on my PC. But honestly, this can only be a stop-gap measure until real 3D mouse support is implemented. I assume you have to hover your mouse pointer over the model for using this, which is not how a 3D mouse is supposed to work. 

 

@GreyArea: Thanks for chiming in and elaborating on why real, native 3D mouse support is needed.

BTW, you assumed correctly, but thanks for your sensitivity 😉

 

Back to a more productive line: the SpaceMouse SDK is available on https://www.3dconnexion.com/service/software-developer.html and according to many people it is actually very well documented, the manufacturer actually being quite helpful when you encounter problems with the implementation.

Edited December 6, 2018 by P3D

[kmanstudios 1,120]

1 hour ago, P3D said:

it might not come over quite as innocent as you try to make it out to be.

That says more about you than me. I thought I clarified that I do not know your experience. You also seem to think I should keep up with your activities.

 

1 hour ago, P3D said:

Wow, so much offendedness.

Whatever makes your day. I actually do have more to do than deal with thin skinned people. And, yes, I am speaking about you.

 

If you cannot accept what I said, then I see no reason to interact with this anymore.

 

If you do not wish to find out why or how I got a system working that you have not, then fine. I am not going to beg people to let me help them.

 

So, read into it as much as you wish.

BTW, that was as far as I read because I see paragraphs and paragraphs of typing, but nothing about the subject at hand. When you wish to return to the subject at hand, the 3D mouse input, I will be happy to help.

 

But armchair theories are not what I am here for. I pay my Asperger's therapist for that thank you very much.

[Smithy 1,144]

I fully understand both of you, there are two opinions and both are correct in my point of view. So why not discuss the topic itself, which could also be helpful for others searching for this problem.

 

I have seen that someone created a workaround for Cura and the space mouse (I think it was on Thingiverse). I haven't checked deeply how the workaround actually works, but maybe give it a try @P3D ?

 

And as far as I understood, @kmanstudios has also a way to use Cura with a 3D mouse, which works well for him. So I would be interested in your workflow.

 

I don't have a 3D mouse and use just my touchpad on the notebook, which works fine for the few technical parts I create in Fusion 360, but when changing to Cura it is hard to switch to completely other shortcuts to move, rotate and so on, and they are in my opinion not so intuitive than in Fusion.

[P3D 46]

As previously mentioned, I'm currently trying to get 3DxWare installed on my PC, which, as far as I understand it, works by mapping the SpaceMouse axis movements to the mouse clicks, drags and keyboard inputs needed for Cura's camera view. This is a fiddly stop-gap solution, as @GreyArea mentioned.

 

The Cura/3DxWare plugin you mentioned: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2913885 tackles the problem from another side, but requires the SpaceMouse to be set up in a way that I can't find in my current driver's config, and once again is only a workaround using keyboard mapping.

 

As I see it, there are some workarounds, but proper support is still needed. The problem with Cura is compounded by the less than intuitive shortcuts and sluggish response, especially to the shift-click-drag camera move operation.

 

[GreyArea 1]

1 hour ago, kmanstudios said:

I pay my Asperger's therapist for that thank you very much.

If that is true it explains some things. I will try to be clearer in my descriptions and be more understanding if your posts are sometimes a little blunt as I know both interpretation and a prioritisation of cold hard facts over what others might call “tact” are both factors...so...

 

To to clarify there’s nothing “wrong” with 3DXware. I just find it to be more intrusive to use it compared to native support. It can save settings “per program” on the axes, and it does that well, meaning as you say that it is possible to configure the axes the same way across all programs, so left is always left, right always right etc.

 

However,  Cura simply does not allow the 3D mouse to have this control. If it does, I’ve missed an update, so please let me know.

 

I find the integration of buttons in 3DXWare considerably less intuitive...it has been a while since I used it, but it used to be a “menu ring” that popped up which the user then used the space mouse to select from. I found this intrusive as I say...and control of a very small ring menu, with a very sensitive device...coupled with my Parkinson’s was problematic. Even if it were not, I am still interacting with something that is not a part of Cura and I find that awkward.

 

Perhaps part of it is my disability, perhaps also that I have the simple one button wireless Spacemouse; maybe the higher cost versions with more actual buttons are better suited to 3DXWare.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

In reference to me helping with the 3D Mosue, Gimme a day or two to get it up and running again. I switched over systems have not installed it due to a variety of circumstances. And, if you re-read my original statements, I did state that I believe I had it working in Cura. It has been a while.

 

To let you know how driving those circumstances are, I have been sculpting in 3D Coat with a mouse instead of my 3d Mouse/ Wacom combo since I switched over. How is THAT for just doing things instead of solving a few other issues, such as proper space to use the equipment.

 

1 hour ago, GreyArea said:

I find the integration of buttons in 3DXWare considerably less intuitive...it has been a while since I used it, but it used to be a “menu ring” that popped up which the user then used the space mouse to select from.

I used the software to program directions of axis control for window navigation (zoom, rotate, etc) Then I programed button clicks as even the lowest form (just the puck with two buttons) can simulate right and left mouse clicks. I really do not remember a ring of options, but can see why that would be implemented as a solution. It is a favored input method on Maya as well as (sort of) 3DS MAX (the right click quad). As far axis control is concerned, I found this to be the most important thing for me as all programs I use are different in which button, etc controls zooms, rotations, etc. And in 3DS MAX, I even had to program certain navigations to be in negative values as it seemed to want to work in reverse natively.

 

So, my question would be, what specific actions do you need? My expectations/needs may have been different.

 

1 hour ago, GreyArea said:

If that is true it explains some things.

💗

 

1 hour ago, GreyArea said:

I will try to be clearer in my descriptions and be more understanding if your posts are sometimes a little blunt as I know both interpretation and a prioritisation of cold hard facts over what others might call “tact” are both factors...so...

Yeah, I am freakin' Joe Friday...'Just the facts man"....

 

To me the most fumy thing as well as the most frustrating thing is when people assume an intent that is just not in my capability wheelhouse.

 

But on to solving the issue....Because is that not what we are here for?

[kmanstudios 1,120]

Based off of @Smithy's comment, I went and found this:

 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2913885

 

It may shortcut this process. I had no idea this was there, but it may be what is needed.

 

Also, just do a spacemouse search and bammo, a boat load of hand rests and such.

https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=space+mouse&dwh=105c090dc15f085

Edited December 6, 2018 by kmanstudios

[GreyArea 1]

3 hours ago, kmanstudios said:

So, my question would be, what specific actions do you need?

 

Basic level would be direct camera control with the spacemouse axes, WITHOUT having to press any buttons. Anything extra to that would be a bonus.