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Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)


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Posted (edited) · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

I have an UM2 extended+
I have noticed on nearly all my prints the infill always underextrudes.
My infill is set to 10% 
Infill line distance: 7.0  
speed infill is 35.

0.1 layer height. 

as you can see, my infill is full of gaps on a diagonal axis. I am still quite inexperienced, what can I change to improve it? 

206976403_795096910998992_3334420455476456164_n.jpg

Edited by Speckles
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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    I can provide more information if need be, I get this on all my prints currently. would increasing infill flow only help?

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    This comes up once in a while but I haven't seen it that bad before.

    Yes, you can increase the flow of the infill (it's under the Material settings).  That looks like it would need a big increase like to 150%.  If the setting isn't visible then next to the Search Settings box is a drop-down for settings visibility.  Set it to "All".

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    2 minutes ago, GregValiant said:

    This comes up once in a while but I haven't seen it that bad before.

    Yes, you can increase the flow of the infill (it's under the Material settings).  That looks like it would need a big increase like to 150%.  If the setting isn't visible then next to the Search Settings box is a drop-down for settings visibility.  Set it to "All".

    Thank you so much for responding. Yup that setting is there, I just wanted to ask someone who knows what they're doing. thanks I will try this .. but 150% does seem excessive. Is there anything else you think could be amiss? 

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    If you go to "File | Save Project" and save the file that way the 3mf file will have the model, the printer, and your settings.  Then post the 3mf file here.  Somebody will take a look and see.  There have been a couple of complaints recently over on Github regarding thin infill so there may be something going on with Cura.  What version of Cura BTW?

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    Posted (edited) · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    43 minutes ago, GregValiant said:

    If you go to "File | Save Project" and save the file that way the 3mf file will have the model, the printer, and your settings.  Then post the 3mf file here.  Somebody will take a look and see.  There have been a couple of complaints recently over on Github regarding thin infill so there may be something going on with Cura.  What version of Cura BTW?

     

    Attached the file you ask for, I am on 4.9.1
    I do have a super old cura I can try as well, I know I never had problems with it on my older ultimaker, I kept it around since for some reason spiralize worked better on it somehow. Thanks again! 

     

     

    UM2E_UFOMiddle.3mf

    Edited by Speckles
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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    12 hours ago, GregValiant said:

    If you go to "File | Save Project" and save the file that way the 3mf file will have the model, the printer, and your settings.  Then post the 3mf file here.  Somebody will take a look and see.  There have been a couple of complaints recently over on Github regarding thin infill so there may be something going on with Cura.  What version of Cura BTW?

    here's an example with a much older cura, 15.04.6. It still definitely does it. albeit maybe a tiny bit stronger/thicker. This was 15% infill there isn't much other settings I can change on this older version

    206379132_492325921882275_3793226048562054439_n.jpg

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    Posted (edited) · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    Hi @Speckles,

     

    This is indeed the most "strange kind" of infill problem I've ever seen.

     

    I've magnified this infill and here is a little more close up.

     

    Your first picture:

    UM2_U_X_Infill_1.jpg.e1169816c94ebf6e21d2574ed9dad182.jpg

     

    The second picture:

    UM2_U_X_Infill_2.thumb.jpg.a994075e28c5d75f36cf23215198b21b.jpg

     

    This picture is a little blurry, but we can see the same type op infill "pattern".

     

    To me it looks like the feeding is oscillating at some high frequency, as it is making this "sloped lines" where it should be a "solid" infill wall.

     

    I'll think this is a strange sort of under extrusion.

    When looking at your file (added in here) using Cura 4.9.1 (latest version), we can observe how the nozzle will build up your model.  The interesting thing is that the infill lines just have two point for each line and move relatively fast printing those lines. However, the walls have much more point (making a curved line) and move at much slower speed.

     

    You could test you "quick print" model with much lower infill speed (say 10 mm/sec), just to see if the infill lines go toward normal.

     

    Another test would be to make the flow test, testing your printers flow up to 10 cubic millimeter/sec!

    If your printer have filament flow problems, this test will tell.

     

    Could be very interesting to see if slower infill speed make it better?

     

    And, yes I've an UM2E+

     

    Lets see what happen?

     

    Thanks

    Torgeir

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Edited by Torgeir
    Text error.
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    Posted (edited) · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    6 hours ago, Torgeir said:

    Hi @Speckles,

     

    This is indeed the most "strange kind" of infill problem I've ever seen.

     

    I've magnified this infill and here is a little more close up.

     

    Your first picture:

    UM2_U_X_Infill_1.jpg.e1169816c94ebf6e21d2574ed9dad182.jpg

     

    The second picture:

    UM2_U_X_Infill_2.thumb.jpg.a994075e28c5d75f36cf23215198b21b.jpg

     

    This picture is a little blurry, but we can see the same type op infill "pattern".

     

    To me it looks like the feeding is oscillating at some high frequency, as it is making this "sloped lines" where it should be a "solid" infill wall.

     

    I'll think this is a strange sort of under extrusion.

    When looking at your file (added in here) using Cura 4.9.1 (latest version), we can observe how the nozzle will build up your model.  The interesting thing is that the infill lines just have two point for each line and move relatively fast printing those lines. However, the walls have much more point (making a curved line) and move at much slower speed.

     

    You could test you "quick print" model with much lower infill speed (say 10 mm/sec), just to see if the infill lines go toward normal.

     

    Another test would be to make the flow test, testing your printers flow up to 10 cubic millimeter/sec!

    If your printer have filament flow problems, this test will tell.

     

    Could be very interesting to see if slower infill speed make it better?

     

    And, yes I've an UM2E+

     

    Lets see what happen?

     

    Thanks

    Torgeir

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Firstly thank you for replying! Well it's almost comforting to know the infill is out of the ordinary and isn't necessarily something I am doing wrong. I will run the speed test tomorrow, I hadn't the chance to run it today. As for the flow test....how do I go about this? If it involves calipers to measure things I am out of luck since I don't own one. Guess it might be time to invest in one!

    I set off a print where I increased infill flow to 130%, and whilst the strength definitely improved, it still has that tell-tale diagonal pattern. Let's see if speed reduction helps, but it doesn't feel like a long term solution for me, I can't print everything at 10ms haha....  but anything to at least diagnose what might be going amiss here. I sorely regret selling on my UM2+ for this extended one now. I never had these issues on that beautiful machine. 

    Edited by Speckles
    typo
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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    Hi @Speckles,

     

    the flow test for an UM2 series is here (a gcode file only for UM2 type printers):

     

    https://www.youmagine.com/designs/test-print-for-ultimaker--2

     

    Any of the UM2 series printer in good condition should be able to print this object.

     

    It start printing like this:

     

    3mm³/s = 75mm/s

    4mm³/s = 100mm/s

    5mm³ = 125mm/s

    6mm³ = 150mm/s

    7mm³ = 175mm/s

    8mm³ = 200mm/s

    9mm³ = 225mm/s

    10mm³ = 250mm/s

     

    If your printer can do this print, it is ok...

     

    Lets see how this goes.

     

    Torgeir

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    10 hours ago, Torgeir said:

    Hi @Speckles,

     

    the flow test for an UM2 series is here (a gcode file only for UM2 type printers):

     

    https://www.youmagine.com/designs/test-print-for-ultimaker--2

     

    Any of the UM2 series printer in good condition should be able to print this object.

     

    It start printing like this:

     

    3mm³/s = 75mm/s

    4mm³/s = 100mm/s

    5mm³ = 125mm/s

    6mm³ = 150mm/s

    7mm³ = 175mm/s

    8mm³ = 200mm/s

    9mm³ = 225mm/s

    10mm³ = 250mm/s

     

    If your printer can do this print, it is ok...

     

    Lets see how this goes.

     

    Torgeir

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    So here are the two tests: one with my cube 10ms speed infill (no extra flow tweaks)
    It certainly looks worse somehow!

    And here is the print you passed to me to test:
    Yikes that's bad. what does this tell you?

    209823768_493780371705883_3235843910033404591_n.jpg

    209618722_1643491162707002_1360367032322650334_n.jpg

    208083975_949854389189436_290761142043644183_n.jpg

    207862391_934315397301112_1834313855033176735_n.jpg

    206679888_378405163721885_7507783106789665227_n.jpg

    206379132_492325921882275_3793226048562054439_n.jpg

    201776031_3039088279749612_883662338918695205_n.jpg

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    Hi @Speckles,

     

    Great, this is "just" a feeding problem, -your feeding system may suffer for too high resistance.

    You'll see the same tendency in this feeding test, under extrusion with constant speed is creating climbing lines that is separated. This is caused by the slow feeding of filament.

     

    a)

    If the "hot end" cooling fan (the aft fan) is not working properly, the heat may climb up into the "normally" cold part of the extruder head.  The filament become some soft and this make additional drag creating less filament feed..

     

    b)

    The heat coupler above the heat block start deforming creating decreased diameter that will give more drag and less filament feeding. So if your aft cooling fan is working ok., this coupler might be the problem.

     

    c)

    The feeder can also create under extrusion, -but in this case I'll think the feeder is ok..

     

    In your case, I'll think the problem is in the extruder, so just check a) and b).

     

    Lets see how this go.

     

    Good luck

    Torgeir

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Posted (edited) · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    There is just another thing to mention here, if the nozzle have been printing very much, the diameter will increase and feeding pressure decrease.. Not a good condition in order to have a good quality print.

    I noticed that your infill line is quite wide, that's make me wonder.

     

    Edit:

    If the nozzle is too wide versus normal size, the effect will be under extrusion as the nozzle is not according to specs,, so in such situation it is not the feeding system to blame.

     

    Thanks

    Torgeir

    Edited by Torgeir
    More info.
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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    26 minutes ago, Torgeir said:

    Hi @Speckles,

     

    Great, this is "just" a feeding problem, -your feeding system may suffer for too high resistance.

    You'll see the same tendency in this feeding test, under extrusion with constant speed is creating climbing lines that is separated. This is caused by the slow feeding of filament.

     

    a)

    If the "hot end" cooling fan (the aft fan) is not working properly, the heat may climb up into the "normally" cold part of the extruder head.  The filament become some soft and this make additional drag creating less filament feed..

     

    b)

    The heat coupler above the heat block start deforming creating decreased diameter that will give more drag and less filament feeding. So if your aft cooling fan is working ok., this coupler might be the problem.

     

    c)

    The feeder can also create under extrusion, -but in this case I'll think the feeder is ok..

     

    In your case, I'll think the problem is in the extruder, so just check a) and b).

     

    Lets see how this go.

     

    Good luck

    Torgeir

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Thanks for your response as always. 

    A) so this option is talking about the fan at the back? (not the large two side fans) To test this fan is working properly, is it meant to be running constantly? I can run a print and check it is 'working properly', I just need to know what the expected behaviour is.

    B) Replacing the coupler I have never done. I guess now will be my first time to try if my fan isnt working. I think I should probably do this anyway, how many prints would something need to go through to warrant replacing? I never used this machine much but don't know its previous owner's history.

    C) the feeder to be honest feels really solid so I think you are right here, unlike my old UM2 it never backs up and clicks. 

    D) The nozzle I have never replaced either, but I also have not questioned it's size. I assumed it was a 0.4 but I honestly don't know how to tell. Would be worthwhile replacing the nozzle too, to be absolutely positive?

    and that brings me to my last question

    At this point do we think its worth installing the Olsson block, so at least when I need to replace nozzles it will be a bit easier? I will not lie and say I am a little nervous taking apart this entire printhead for the first time. So I wanna make sure it all amounts to success in the end! I will be gutted if replacing coupler and nozzle does not work, should that happen, would you have any last theories or doubts?

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    A picture of all my parts for good measure

    204457673_528914868555481_1897232956108252830_n.jpg

    205444164_1317378408677713_10681580264517550_n.jpg

    209569334_4392613637462931_4219112429321778706_n.jpg

    206356494_553066965723788_4174107420968831818_n.jpg

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    Posted (edited) · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    Hi,

     

    Oh., this nozzle is much bigger that a 0.4 mm nozzle, also this looks like an Olsson block as it can be removed..

    But, before trying to remove it, heat it up to about 130 deg., C, then loosen the nozzle.

     

    This nozzle looks way to big, so I'll guess this is the problem.

     

    Here is a zoomed picture of the nozzle:

     

    UM2_Nozzle.jpg.a43625a6387ee3d404798fe196230210.jpg

     

     

    Torgeir.

    Edited by Torgeir
    Text error.
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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    44 minutes ago, Torgeir said:

    Hi,

     

    Oh., this nozzle is much bigger that a 0.4 mm nozzle, also this looks like an Olsson block as it can be removed..

    But, before trying to remove it, heat it up to about 130 deg., C, then loosen the nozzle.

     

    This nozzle looks way to big, so I'll guess this is the problem.

     

    Here is a zoomed picture of the nozzle:

     

    UM2_Nozzle.jpg.a43625a6387ee3d404798fe196230210.jpg

     

     

    Torgeir.

    Oh really this is Olsson already? how can you tell? Oh well that's good news, I guess never assume! The person I bought this from had definitely been customizing this machine. There used to be a magnetic buildTak base on it which I removed due to not getting good adhesion. If you are sure it is Olson block I will go buy some new nozzles then that actually have the nozzle size inscribed on it. Thanks so much, I knew something must have been amiss. 

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)

    Sure I'll know, this one have a hexagonal screw as an Ollson heat block.

    The original UM2 have no hexagon screw and is just round without the hexagon and you have to change the complete heat block when changing to another nozzle size.

     

    Also, I have an UM2E that's upgraded to the + version.

     

    Torgeir

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    Posted · Weak/under-extruded infill (outer surface looks good)
    3 minutes ago, Torgeir said:

    Sure I'll know, this one have a hexagonal screw as an Ollson heat block.

    The original UM2 have no hexagon screw and is just round without the hexagon and you have to change the complete heat block when changing to another nozzle size.

     

    Also, I have an UM2E that's upgraded to the + version.

     

    Torgeir

    That's fantastic. Thanks for the explanation! Was just worried how blurry my pictures can be, thanks for teaching me how to identify the difference. Now trying to source the correct sized torque wrench to remove it and replace it with a shiny new 0.4 nozzle

    Thanks again. I was so lost and you've truly helped this newbie. 

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