First layer problems after Sonic Pad

[Eaglion 0]

Hi,

 

I am new to 3d Printing. When i first bought the Ender 3 S1 Pro, I was using stock Marlin Firmware. PLA was sticking to PEI sheet almost all the time. Recently I bought a Sonic Pad and i started to have first layer adhesion problems.

 

I did all the calibrations, Bed leveling is done and reviewed several times. Z offset seems OK. With bulky prints i can get away with some irregularities and rest of the model prints very fast and well. Bu tiny models, delicate plates, multiple copies almost always fail from the start.

 

Now i have a few questions.

1- I need to print a thin sheet with a lot of holes which will be a front panel of a display screen case. After printing skirt lines, Printer directly tries to print hole perimeters as the holes are very close to each other, extruder just drags the ones printed immediately. Is there a setting in cura to be able print the solid parts first then print the hole perimeters. Is wall ordering will do this.

2- The profiles that came with sonic pad seems awkward to me. ie: print dimensions are normally 220x220 but profile is 235x235 (full size), initial bed and nozzle temps are much higher than previous that PLA oozes much more than before but reducing them did not help adhesion. Does anyone tried different profiles for S1 Pro with sonic pad that can share with me.

3-  If i want to print the sheet upright how can i support it to avoid it tumbling down.  Dimensions as  will be  H 120 mm X W 200mm L 3mm. Standing on 3 mm at will be 120 mm tall. Curo only suggest supports for inner windows but not  for tumbling. I want the front face look decent.

 

Regards,  

[Slashee_the_Cow 621]

1 hour ago, Eaglion said:

1- I need to print a thin sheet with a lot of holes which will be a front panel of a display screen case. After printing skirt lines, Printer directly tries to print hole perimeters as the holes are very close to each other, extruder just drags the ones printed immediately. Is there a setting in cura to be able print the solid parts first then print the hole perimeters. Is wall ordering will do this.

Nope. I think the order Cura prints layers is Support > Walls > Top/Bottom > Infill.

 

1 hour ago, Eaglion said:

2- The profiles that came with sonic pad seems awkward to me. ie: print dimensions are normally 220x220 but profile is 235x235 (full size), initial bed and nozzle temps are much higher than previous that PLA oozes much more than before but reducing them did not help adhesion. Does anyone tried different profiles for S1 Pro with sonic pad that can share with me.

A lot of the Ender-3 series models that officially have a 220x220 build area, the plate itself is 235x235, and it's limited in software. If you can connect your computer over USB and get a terminal up to send the printer instructions then it might be able to unlock the whole area (the instructions are probably out there in a lot of places). Newer ones (like the Ender-3 V3 SE) also have 220x220 build areas and 235x235 plates but there are physical blockers on the printer to stop you going past the 220x220 area.

 

The Sonic Pad shouldn't affect the relationship between temperature, adhesion and such. In theory, if all the settings are the same, it shouldn't matter if you have a fancy control panel or not, so use whatever settings you used without the pad. The settings I change for bed adhesion with PLA are:

• Quality > Initial Layer Height to 0.3mm (when I'm printing with 0.2mm layers anyway, but there's no reason you can't have an initial layer 0.3mm thick even if you're printing very thin layers above it.
• Quality > Initial Layer Line Width to 150%. Bigger lines mean more to adhere and the nozzle has to press harder to get them to go wide instead of tall.
• Material > Printing Temperature Initial Layer to 5° hotter than the rest of it. Same for Material > Build Plate Temperature Initial Layer.
• Material > Initial Layer Flow to 105%. In theory it'll cause a little overextrusion but I've never noticed it. More nice hot filament coming out at once means more nice hot filament that can adhere.
• Speed > Initial Layer Print Speed to about half of what the Wall Speed is set to. Gives the filament more time to be warm with the filament near it and set better.
• Speed > Initial Layer Travel Speed out of an overabundance of caution, I usually set this to whatever the initial layer print speed is. Less chance of the nozzle pulling stuff with it if it doesn't go zooming off after a bit.
• Cooling > Initial Fan Speed to 0%. We want the initial layer to stay warm as long as possible.

1 hour ago, Eaglion said:

3-  If i want to print the sheet upright how can i support it to avoid it tumbling down.  Dimensions as  will be  H 120 mm X W 200mm L 3mm. Standing on 3 mm at will be 120 mm tall. Curo only suggest supports for inner windows but not  for tumbling. I want the front face look decent.

If you're alright with it one side not being all that decent, then rotate it backwards so that the back side of the sheet is above the bed.

• Turn on Support > Generate Support
• Set Support Structure to Normal
• Set Support Placement to Touching Buildplate
• Gradually reduce the value of Support Overhang Angle (if needed) until it's building support for most of the sheet.
• Reduce the value of Support Density. You can probably get away with 10%, maybe even 5%. I managed to print a giant disc with this much support:
  
  I custom placed the supports, but the point is that you can actually have a decent distance between supports and it'll print the area between them alright, so a low support density is something you can get away with.

 

20 Slashee Points™ to whoever can guess why I wanted to print a giant disc in black PLA.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Slashee_the_Cow

[Eaglion 0]

Just some update

 

Despite wall order outside first, it starts printing the holes first

 

Baby stepping help adhesion a bit. At least the upper layers could print on them. So my questions remain with additional one. But I had to revert it back after first layer as it starts to scrub the layers below after two layers.

 

4- Is it possible to change z height for the first layer in Cura?

[Slashee_the_Cow 621]

2 minutes ago, Eaglion said:

4- Is it possible to change z height for the first layer in Cura?

Yep! Quality > Initial Layer Height

 

 

2 minutes ago, Eaglion said:

Despite wall order outside first, it starts printing the holes first

That only applies to each set of walls - the whole sheet has a set of walls, but so does each hole.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Slashee_the_Cow

[Eaglion 0]

6 minutes ago, Slashee_the_Cow said:

Nope. I think the order Cura prints layers is Support > Walls > Top/Bottom > Infill.

 

A lot of the Ender-3 series models that officially have a 220x220 build area, the plate itself is 235x235, and it's limited in software. If you can connect your computer over USB and get a terminal up to send the printer instructions then it might be able to unlock the whole area (the instructions are probably out there in a lot of places). Newer ones (like the Ender-3 V3 SE) also have 220x220 build areas and 235x235 plates but there are physical blockers on the printer to stop you going past the 220x220 area.

 

The Sonic Pad shouldn't affect the relationship between temperature, adhesion and such. In theory, if all the settings are the same, it shouldn't matter if you have a fancy control panel or not, so use whatever settings you used without the pad. The settings I change for bed adhesion with PLA are:

• Quality > Initial Layer Height to 0.3mm (when I'm printing with 0.2mm layers anyway, but there's no reason you can't have an initial layer 0.3mm thick even if you're printing very thin layers above it.
• Quality > Initial Layer Line Width to 150%. Bigger lines mean more to adhere and the nozzle has to press harder to get them to go wide instead of tall.
• Material > Printing Temperature Initial Layer to 5° hotter than the rest of it. Same for Material > Build Plate Temperature Initial Layer.
• Material > Initial Layer Flow to 105%. In theory it'll cause a little overextrusion but I've never noticed it. More nice hot filament coming out at once means more nice hot filament that can adhere.
• Speed > Initial Layer Print Speed to about half of what the Wall Speed is set to. Gives the filament more time to be warm with the filament near it and set better.
• Speed > Initial Layer Travel Speed out of an overabundance of caution, I usually set this to whatever the initial layer print speed is. Less chance of the nozzle pulling stuff with it if it doesn't go zooming off after a bit.
• Cooling > Initial Fan Speed to 0%. We want the initial layer to stay warm as long as possible.

If you're alright with it one side not being all that decent, then rotate it backwards so that the back side of the sheet is above the bed.

• Turn on Support > Generate Support
• Set Support Structure to Normal
• Set Support Placement to Touching Buildplate
• Gradually reduce the value of Support Overhang Angle (if needed) until it's building support for most of the sheet.
• Reduce the value of Support Density. You can probably get away with 10%, maybe even 5%. I managed to print a giant disc with this much support:
  
  I custom placed the supports, but the point is that you can actually have a decent distance between supports and it'll print the area between them alright, so a low support density is something you can get away with.

 

It seems you posted while i was writing the update . Thanks for the reply.

 

The PEI texture is not nice for the look i needed but revering the sheet will not be any better as top layer shows lots of  layers and not have that shiny looks of side walls which i am aiming at. From your drawing and comment , i assume  printing with a 5-10 degree angle is best. Right?

 

Currently i am trying to print and could not try "Initial Layer Line Width to 150%." I will definetly try it.

 

What about variable z height/offset. is it possible.?

 

[Slashee_the_Cow 621]

20 minutes ago, Eaglion said:

The PEI texture is not nice for the look i needed but revering the sheet will not be any better as top layer shows lots of  layers and not have that shiny looks of side walls which i am aiming at. From your drawing and comment , i assume  printing with a 5-10 degree angle is best. Right?

Well to get technical the reason I had my disc at that angle is that it allowed me to fit the biggest disc possible in the space. But yes, you only want to change the angle a bit, that will give better quality because it will let the material do overhangs rather than relying entirely on the support - you really only need support so that it doesn't fall over due to its own weight.

 

24 minutes ago, Eaglion said:

What about variable z height/offset. is it possible.?

Could you be more specific? You can change the Z height of the first layer with the setting in the quality section. The only other way Cura can change the layer height is if you turn on adaptive layers, but that's designed for saving time and filament on models with lots of detail in some spots and not much in others, so not really what you want.

 

There is a plugin available (just click Marketplace at the top right) called "Z Offset Setting", which allows you to apply a small Z offset with the idea being that for the first layer, the nozzle extrudes as much as normal, but it's pressing down a bit harder. I'm not sure if it would help in your situation, since especially if you're printing at an angle, there won't actually be very much on the first layer.