UMS5 keeps failing even with proper maintenance, fresh new printcores and new spools...

[Dadkitess 19]

I sincerely don't get it.

 

We have had so many troubles with our UMS5 during the past 2.5 years... See my other posts haha.

 

2 days ago, I went all-in, giving another full maintenance (axis, feeders, fans, etc), gave it 2 new printcore (AA0.4 and BB0.4), 2 new spools (Ultimaker PETG and Ultrafuse BVOH, acknowledging that UM PVA is a real garbage that we've really, really, really tried to use (about 4 spools)), and... Well, first print went OK, 28h, 0.3mm, 40mm/s (it's a ponctual maximum) for PETG and 20mm/s for BVOH, really nothing fancy.

 

Then we launched the second part of the print, another 27h print, which triggered the very (un)famous "Flow rate error" on the BB core something like 1h in, I reduced the speed by 15%, triggered again ~2h after, reduced the speed to 66% and... It failed again.

 

What does it take for this printer to actually print without constantly failing ? I've had this error something like 100 times I would say. Or maybe even more actually. A HUNDRED TIME. Most of the time, it was indeed because for flow rare issue, even with a correctly cleaned feeder and OK speed, and 90% of that was on BB Core and PVA. Damn, that thing is atrocious. But I'd say that quite often, when hitting the "continue button" (like, do it, I don't care, please try at least), it would get back to work for another hour and then fail. And I'm quite certain that there is at least a good 10% of non relevant flow trigger, like it would actually print.

 

Let's say that the flow error is relevant, as a first scenario : why, please, why does it happen so often ? Why this machine can't print ? Does it need to be kept at 10mm/s as soon as you hit a 0.3mm layer height ? Does it have such a weak capacity to extrude material ?

 

Second : let's assume that feeder is fine. It can fail because the printcore got dirty and limiting the output of the material, the available flow rate possible. Ok. But WHY does it happen so often on BB Core (and this is not exclusive) and HOW can it happen with a fresh new print core that only serve for 28h ?!!!! Because i'm quite confident that it's the main issue : printcore, by design, are really really bad and got stucked whenever they can. I'm astonished by what comes out when I clean them using Cleaning Filament.

 

Like... WHY do the filament stays in the printcore even when it's not used at all for a whole print, or even simply during a 2-material prints ? Why can't it retract even further so that it does not get heated by the other princore just nearby, leading to burnt plastic, hald melted debris and so on ?

 

Third : is the flow sensor notoriously bad with a lot of false detection ? If so, why again ? I don't understand how a flow error can then be resumed without any modification, for an hour of printing, and then trigger again ? How can it resume and print properly, except if the sensor is wrong and everything was alright ?

 

Again, keep in mind that the third scenario can't be the main explanation : I'd say that most of the time, the trigger would happen with sign of underextrusion visible. So the main concern is the ability of this damn machine to block itself even with appropriate maintenance, decent skill and care, fresh new consumable, fresh new official spools.

 

It's beyond me.

 

Thanks for those who can help me, it's not just a rant, hopefully, but a real look for solution / reason.

[Dustin 160]

Unfortunately, UltiMaker does not provide direct support via the Community.

Please contact UltiMaker Support directly for help with this issue.

here: https://support.ultimaker.com/s/contactsupport

 

[alkekmakerspace 5]

I manage a college makerspace that has 8 Ultimaker S5s with material stations. We originally printed PVA on all of them, but that became a nightmare to deal with. We now limit this to one printer to simplify things. PVA ALWAYS needs extra attention. If you don't use the spool CONSTANTLY, it will have problems. We fortunately burn through the stuff quickly because there are many students that want to create miniatures. Therefore our printer with PVA is running almost 24/7. We started buying the smaller spools of PVA to prevent it from going bad. We will only keep 2 spools in stock at any given time for the same reason.

 

In the 4 years that we have been using these printers, we only recently replaced all the belts. We have not replaced any other major parts except for a random failed bearing in one of the print heads. We replace print cores only when they have obvious problems. We are still using the original BB cores that came with the machines. Each printer has roughly 18,000 hours on it.

You can disable the flow sensor on the machine itself by the way. This will prevent it from stopping, but it will also ignore any under-extrusion problems.

Your problems are with the material itself, not necessarily the printer. All printers will have problems with PVA or another water soluble material. These materials are just terrible to print. They degrade rapidly.

I have not personally tried BVOH yet, but I may give it a shot to see if it does any better than PVA.

Edited August 30 by alkekmakerspace

[chuck-yanke 10]

We put pva in an ESun filament drier the day before and feed it from the drier. Damp pva will fail every time. Also when done run filament cleaner thru the printcore to get old pva out or it will plug next time

[Dadkitess 19]

Thank your for your feedback.

 

This is... Bad design. PVA is an horrible material, then it should be retracted at the end of a print so that it won't sit in the printcore camarelizing for hours of non being used. Well, this and dozens of other flaws. My PLA / Polydissolve S1 / BVOH sits in a heated chamber all the time, about 20% permanent hygrometry and even then it will jam as soon as it can.

 

Well, actually, if only it would happen to soluble support and not the other one, huh ? But even AA printcore with official material will jam sometime, way less often of course. Still, it should not happen more than once in a year of daily printing, just like other printers.

Edited Tuesday at 02:22 PM by Dadkitess

[chuck-yanke 10]

The issues you have with pva is a material issue that has been covered in this forum for years. It has always required extra maintenance  . There are other dissolvable filaments with less work, have you tried them?  The AA cores will jam if not cleaned out and it is especially true if changing materials. A little material always stays in the core that needs flushing out.  Your issues with the print cores boils down to the work required to get consistent results out of this design of machine. It does not appear the S5 matches your needs, instead of beating a dead horse maybe you should move on to a printer better suited to your style of printing.

[Dadkitess 19]

Well, the thing is... I do need Soluble Support. And Ultimaker S5 was the "reliable plug and play machine" way to go. Unfortunately, it turns out it's a mess, and now that I speak with other people, especially among pro, it's among the worst experience they have. And I have no chance, so far, to move on, as you say, money does not come free.

 

I have some hope about Prusa XL and other competition to get proper dual/multiple head which would fix all the design flaws of the UMS5. Because, yeah, it's crippled by very bad design decision / results that does not reflect the brand moto nor its experience. It's really bad and I feel unfortunate that everything (reviews, specs, etc) lead me to UMS5 as a the "reliable semi pro" printer to go.

[alkekmakerspace 5]

3 hours ago, Dadkitess said:

Well, the thing is... I do need Soluble Support. And Ultimaker S5 was the "reliable plug and play machine" way to go. Unfortunately, it turns out it's a mess, and now that I speak with other people, especially among pro, it's among the worst experience they have. And I have no chance, so far, to move on, as you say, money does not come free.

 

I have some hope about Prusa XL and other competition to get proper dual/multiple head which would fix all the design flaws of the UMS5. Because, yeah, it's crippled by very bad design decision / results that does not reflect the brand moto nor its experience. It's really bad and I feel unfortunate that everything (reviews, specs, etc) lead me to UMS5 as a the "reliable semi pro" printer to go.

Like I mentioned above, if you constantly print with a PVA spool, it will tend to work well.

 

I prefer that it leaves the PVA loaded, because it tends to break/snap off in the bowden tube if it is retracted too much. If I   start another print within 30 minutes of the previous print finishing, I tend to not have any issues.

Buy smaller spools of PVA, print it constantly until it is gone. Clean the print cores consistently. Clean the nozzle end consistently.

[Dadkitess 19]

Yeah, I understand that. Still I don't get why / how the print can resume correctly for an hour or two after the "flow error" without any cleaning or action : like... Was the error legitimate ? If so, how did it fix by itself ? Why will it fail again after some time ? If it's not legitimate, how to fix this false true error witout deactivating the whole sensor setting ? Can we deactivate it for one core and not the other one ?

 

 

[alkekmakerspace 5]

17 minutes ago, Dadkitess said:

Yeah, I understand that. Still I don't get why / how the print can resume correctly for an hour or two after the "flow error" without any cleaning or action : like... Was the error legitimate ? If so, how did it fix by itself ? Why will it fail again after some time ? If it's not legitimate, how to fix this false true error witout deactivating the whole sensor setting ? Can we deactivate it for one core and not the other one ?

 

 

We will sometimes get random flow errors and it will say the material is empty. You can then hit continue and it will work. From my experience this flow sensor is doing its job correctly. There is usually a small inconsistency in the extrusion. This occurs frequently with the PVA and it ends up looking a lot like snow instead of extruded plastic. This usually does not fail the print though. It can usually recover and continue printing. I don't know of a way to disable the sensor for just one extruder. There is probably a way if you put the machine into developer mode and then ssh into it remotely.