Jump to content
Anders Olsson

Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Recommended Posts

Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I'm sure I must be missing something, but why can't the block which houses the heater & sensor just have a threaded hole on the underside with a screw-in nozzle?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Yes, I made some slight improvements to the design in order to make it easier to remove the sensor and the heater.

I have had hundreds of hours of printing with it on my printer, so I am quite confident it will work now.

Regarding print quality and oozing properties, the E3D-nozzle might differ slightly from the original nozzle. This is something that I can or will not do anything about though. In my opinion it seems to work as good as the original nozzle, but I have not done extensive comparisons yet.

One of my heater blocks has been living at Ultimakers HQ for some time now, but I have had zero feedback on that.

My main issue is now to get a workshop to manufacture a test series of these for a reasonable price.

I am negotiating with two workshops, but things are awfully slow here. (and I am quite busy with other things too)

I was hoping that I could offer a test series of these to people in this thread before Christmas or so.

I asked Ultimaker if they have any opinion on me providing these as upgrades for the UM2, but I had zero feedback on that one too so far, so I guess it is okay then :grin:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I'm sure I must be missing something, but why can't the block which houses the heater & sensor just have a threaded hole on the underside with a screw-in nozzle?

 

That is exactly how I wanted it to be designed. (Don't ask me why UM did not design it that way from the start)

Just drilling and threading the original UM2 heater block was not an option though.

There is simply not enough material in the original heater block to fit a standard M6 threaded nozzle in it.

If there were M5 threaded nozzles it could just about work, but those seems rare and I wanted a off-shelf drop in replacement nozzle that is available in different diameters.

This was the main reason why I had to make a new heater block.

While redesigning it, I also tried to address the heater and sensor fixing issue since the original set screw design really isn't that good.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Ah, yes. I hadn't spotted the heater/sensor holes lurking at the back! Couldn't those two holes be made a couple of mm shallower? Or be left as they are, when the heater & sensor would just push up against the thread of the nozzle?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Well, if you suggest modifying the original heater block there are space constraints both towards the sensor/heater and in the opposite direction, towards the front of the printer:

UM2 original Vs. custom heater block

The red lines are the outlines of the original UM2 nozzle and the blue/greenish lines are the outlines of the E3D-V6 nozzle.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

"I was hoping that I could offer a test series of these to people in this thread before Christmas or so."

sounds good to me ... I have a week off around christmas so plenty of time ... let me know if you need funding for the test series.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I had a reply from a workshop now.

If I sell them one by one, I probably have to charge 60 Euro each, one 0.4 mm nozzle included, delivery costs not included. (If I can send many at once, I can reduce the price a bit, so don't hesitate to order several and distribute them in your area)

Anyone who wants one, can you please send me a PM so I can estimate if there is a market.

(I have to get about 50 pieces manufactured get down to a reasonable price)

Please note: I can not guarantee that this thing will work as good as the original nozzle with for example dual extrusion, or that it will be compatible with potential future upgrades from Ultimaker.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

@anders - this is very cool.

To do it right you should sell a .25 or .3mm nozzle as well and a .6 to .8mm nozzle also. Selling 3 nozzles would be amazing.

Also the "shoulder" - the flat part around the hole needs to be about 3X the diameter of the hole. So a .4mm nozzle should have about a 1.2mm diameter flat. A .25mm nozzle should have about a .75mm flat. And a .7mm nozzle would have a 2.1mm flat.

If you can get me 3 sizes of nozzles and the basic heater part for 100 Euro, then I'm in. This advantage of quick change is great.

In fact I'll be your USA distributor if you want.

P.S. I noticed that the length of the .4mm hole is shorter in your design - this is a fantastic feature. The pressure drop (friction) increases linearly by length - if you can make the length half as long then that will make the feeder motor not have to work so hard and you will get less chances of slipping, underextrusion.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

If you can get me 3 sizes of nozzles and the basic heater part for 100 Euro, then I'm in. This advantage of quick change is great.

 

Same here

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

The nozzles are standard nozzles from E3D: http://e3d-online.com/E3D-v6/Extra-Nozzles

So I can not take any credit for that design :smile:

As you can see they are not that expensive, which was one of the reasons why I selected E3D.

That also means one heater block and three nozzles would be more like 80 Euro. (depending on how expensive nozzles you select)

The internal shape of the E3D nozzle is, even though it looks complex, a bit primitive in the way that it seems optimized for manufacturing with standard tools. That is why it has that two step shape as I understand it.

The flat areas are about the same size for the E3D nozzles as for the Ultimaker nozzles I believe. Larger hole means the flat area is increased accordingly for the E3D-nozzles.

The original UM2 nozzle internal cone shape is a more "professional" approach to plastic extrusion, but requires a less common tool for manufacturing.

In theory it should have benefits over the E3D-design, but in practice all I can say is that my heater block with the E3D-nozzle can reach higher flows than the original nozzle.

That might be because the hot zone is a bit longer though.

What I particularly don't like with the original nozzle is that small step where the cone becomes a 0.4mm hole.

I had a lot of issues with clogging where it seems like the clogging particle was hiding on that edge and was sometimes very difficult to get out of the nozzle.

I have no idea about how well the E3D nozzle works for dual extrusion compared to the original nozzle. The Ultimaker design might have advantages when it comes to for example oozing, but I have not tested this at all.

Now over to some important information:

- I am rather busy already, and selling heater blocks really is not my main goal in life.

I have a job and a private business as a consultant which really would need more attention and is much more beneficial than selling heater blocks.

So as much as I like to help all of you, I really would not mind if someone else distributes the heater blocks.

Manufacturing them is much less than 60 Euro each.

- I would prefer to make a small initial series of let's say 20 pieces to validate the design and I think I just might found an opportunity to do this without increasing the price.

- There are rumors that Ultimaker are performing experiments with their own design of some new nozzle related component.

I have tried as hard as I could to get information about this, but so far the result is that I can not get anything confirmed really, not even if there will be some Ultimaker approach with exchangeable nozzles at all, ever.

This situation is a bit inconvenient for me.

I don't like the idea of selling my heater block to people and then two weeks later Ultimaker presents their own version

I also don't like the thought that I might end up with 50 unsold heater blocks when Ultimaker suddenly releases their own design.

But on the other hand we have been waiting for another famous upgrade from Ultimaker for quite some time now :smile:

- I have considered letting the design completely free, but before that happens I would prefer to get two things done:

1. Finish writing the scientific article where this design is featured and get it published.

2. Get a small series made and tested by people around the world to confirm that the design really is 100% working.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Ah - I get it now. e3d nozzles. Well pm-dude is in canada - not so far. I can probably ship to him. And melkolo is in USA. So I'm willing to pay for 10 if you promise not to sell any in North America until I unload those 10. I'll pay for them up front through paypal when you are ready to ship.

After the first 10 if things work out well maybe I can expand my shipping department. Or maybe I'll decide it's not something I want to do.

One of my worries is that it will leak around the nozzle threads.

Regarding what UM is doing - I've seen their new nozzle designs and they are going in so many different directions there's no way to tell where they will end up. They are doing so many experiments with completely different designs. Anything you can imagine they are trying it out and running into problems with every way they go. I don't think they will have anything for at least 6 months. But I don't know.

I'm pretty sure that even none of the UM employess know if the next nozzle will be quick change or not. Will be all metal or not. Will be able to handle 300C or not. Will be flexidrive driven, or not. Will support PVA or not. Will support other nozzle sizes or not. Will need an entirely new head. Or not. Will be custom nozzle depending on material or not (the melt zone moves depending on the glass point of the material so with ABS you can have longer bronze section near the tip but that's bad for PLA - or maye I have that backwards). It's just all up in the air.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

As i already mailed i'll like to take 2 to experiment with...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

One of my worries is that it will leak around the nozzle threads.

 

I was worried about that too, but it has worked fine so far.

The thread inside the heater block is very short which means the nozzle can tilt quite a lot before it is tightened. I think this helps it align with the seat inside the heater block.

Both sealing surfaces are machined in a proper way too and the sealing surface on the nozzle is not very wide, so I would say the design is not that bad as a metal to metal seal.

Here is a picture of how the nozzles look after some use.

 

2014 12 09 4656[1]

The right one has been printing about 200 hours I think, using all sorts of strange plastic.

 

 

One of my worries is that it will leak around the nozzle threads.

Regarding what UM is doing - I've seen their new nozzle designs and they are going in so many different directions there's no way to tell where they will end up. They are doing so many experiments with completely different designs. Anything you can imagine they are trying it out and running into problems with every way they go. I don't think they will have anything for at least 6 months. But I don't know.

 

 

Interesting information!

 

So if I would claim that I am now running comparisons between a normal nozzle and a prototype with an "anti ooze valve", would that suggest that I might still be ahead of Ultimaker on this part of the printer? :grin:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

This existing block is already ahead. Let's sell this thing! I doubt they will come out with multiple nozzle sizes within a year and if they do it will be probably €120 for 3 nozzle sizes.

Seriously if you make 10 I'll pay the €600 euros and distribute to whomever wants them in North America and handle the billing and all. By the way I might miss posts to this thread. I haven't yet but... it can happen. So if I don't respond within 24 hours please send me a direct message.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Hi everyone,

I've been tinkering with this idea for a while now and came across this thread.

I'm in the process of getting a new heat block made to fit the E3D nozzles too. I've attached a drawing of what I've had in mind but I'm starting to think this one would be better.

Edit: When I say this one I meant the one by Anders Olsson.

My design would require modification to the fan shield/mount though. I've increased the size of the block to accommodate the new nozzle which also gives room for M2 grub screws to lock the heater block and temp sensor in place.

heat block V2 Sheet

Please forgive the drawing its my first attempt with inventor and I may have one to many dimensions :)

I have to admit that I'm not sure how the larger mass of the block will effect extrusion though. I know the heat up time will be affected but unsure about stability. The plan was to lower the fan mount and increase the hole size to fit the new nozzle.

I'd really love some feedback good or bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I would like to see a version where I don't have to modify fans or drill hole in fan mount plate.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Just FYI Anders design is moving along. He is having someone make a small batch *and* he has a partner working on making a medium sized batch at the same time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I agree with you. The less modifications from the standard the better. Out of interest why do is the heat block made general of brass other than the obvious easy to machine, cheap, reasonably high heat conductivity. Is conductivity the main aim or does heat capacity also a large factor?

I'm a little impatient and have easy access to machine shops so would like to get some blocks made my self. Plus I don't have to pay as it's for work ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I really don't know but it might have to do with how much melted plastics stick to aluminum versus brass. The original reprap nozzles were brass acorn nuts machined on a lathe with the hole drilled out. Many probably still are. You get the hex nut shape and thread built in and they are cheap:

brass-cap-nuts.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

I think another property of brass that is important is that it does not corrode easily.

Few other materials has that combination of price, thermal conductivity, hardness, easy machining and corrosion resistance (in air).

Pure copper for example would corrode heavily if you got finger prints on it and kept it heated to 260 C in atmosphere for an extended period of time.

For alternative heater block designs, I have some comments on gixxers design.

Don't read this as criticism. I am just using your drawing to explain the design challenges with this part of the printer a bit more in detail:

- You can not make a hole threaded and get a nice seat for the nozzle the way it is shown in your drawing (think about how a thread tap looks, it does not cut complete threads all the way to the bottom of a hole).

This is why I had to complicate my design with a milled section inside the hole.

Or where is your sealing surface? (both the nozzle and the hole are 7.5mm)

If you select to use the hexagon surface for sealing you will fill the threads with plastic.

- There needs to be a screw at the same place as the original set screw.

The set screw is not only supposed to fix the heater and the sensor, it also prevents the heater block from rotating. This is particularly important if you are going for dual extrusion, as you would adjust the individual height of the nozzles by rotating the heat break tube which is screwed onto the M6x0.75 thread.

- A much larger mass of the heater block is likely to trigger the sensor monitoring function.

Daid recently decreased the sensitivity of this function: http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/8634-curas-1412-firmware-is-screwing-my-um2/?p=82766

but if the mass is twice or more, I think the monitoring will still be a problem.

Modifying the firmware is not that difficult, but you would have to keep modifying it for each updated version of the firmware.

- If I made a thick heater block like that, I would separate it in two pieces:

A heater block with M6x1 through thread and a connection pipe with M6x1 in one end and M6x0.75 in the other end.

That would make machining much easier.

 

So, I am not saying that my design is the only one possible.

But if you want to keep it completely plug and play, no other hardware or software modifications, there are a whole range of very limiting constraints for the Ultimaker 2 which severely restricts your design options.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Thanks Anders that's exactly the feedback I was hoping for.

I hadn't given much thought to the corrosion resistance factor. I did some googling and found that the plastic extrusion industry uses tool steal for there nozzles but then they don't have retractions to contend with. The prices seem relatively comparable to our nozzles.

I work in the atomized alloy powder business. We actually supply many 3d metal printing company. I asked about the brass as I have access to some rather exotic alloys, some of which are very thermally conductive. I'm not suggesting at this stage that these materials would be commercially viable alternatives right now but its something I'm going to look into ( I keep you posted on this one).

- I am having both M6 threads thread milled in, but you are very right in this respect. Getting the thread to perfectly meet the sealing surface is asking for trouble. Milling out the last few mm it is. You are correct on another count with the 7.5mm depth, this needs to be reduced mmmm....

- I had not considered that the block would rotate without the set screw. I was wondering why it extended into the head sink. I'll have to think in this one but your solution in indeed a good one. I wonder with your design if having the screw on the bottom of the block going into a small hole the fan housing may be another approach. This should allow a much smaller screw reducing the thermal mass of the block further.

- I did read the thread by Daid regarding the firmware change. I was hoping that given the sensor is so close to the heater cartage the 20 deg increase in 20 sec would be detected. I thinking that by getting the new nozzle deeper in the heat block there would be less temperature loss between the block and tip of the nozzle. There should be a way to calculate the maximum mass. I might try a few block sizes to see if I can trigger the error.

 

- If I made a thick heater block like that, I would separate it in two pieces:

A heater block with M6x1 through thread and a connection pipe with M6x1 in one end and M6x0.75 in the other end.

That would make machining much easier.

 

This may be a very good idea not just for ease of machining but to reduce heat transfer up to the Teflon cold end. This section could perhaps be made from a material with a lower thermal conductivity. Hhmm... aim I missing something here or could that be another very good idea Anders?

I can see that for the closest plug and play solution for interchangeable nozzles you end up with your design. I wish I'd have found this thread sooner now.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, has a tapered internal profile be considered for nozzles before. If the taper ended at the cold end would this not reduce clogging particularly for all metal hot ends. From what I can gather the problem with all metal hot ends is that PLA during retraction acts like the seal in a syringe, as the filament is pushed back in it mushrooms and binds to the walls. However if the melt zone was tapered from 3.2mm to say 1.5mm the head of the retracted filament would also be tapered, reducing the likely hood of a clog.

Just a thought perhaps my logic is way off on this.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

Just found this also

http://www.google.com/patents/EP1188535A1?cl=en

Take a look at the sketch. I wonder how much research has been done on the internal geometry of our nozzles. Another option could be an enlarged cavity within the melt zone.

I'm hijacking this thread now aren't I. I'll start a new one me thinks.

**Edit** New thread for nozzle geometry added here

http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php?/topic/8732-research-into-internal-nozzle-geometry/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Custom heater block to fit E3D nozzle on Ultimaker 2 ("The Olsson Block")

You can put me down for 1 sent to Southern California. Might I suggest using MatterHackers for your distribution. They already sell and stock E3D products, so they are in a great position to add yours to their portfolio...

.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to the Ultimaker Community of 3D printing experts. Visit the following links to read more about our Terms of Use or our Privacy Policy. Thank you!