Company update

[damfal003 0]

Let me first say that I love Ultimaker's printers and their ethos: I am about to buy a UM2 and, to be honest, this news about the dual extruder hasn't influenced my decision really, considering I don' think I would ever really need one.

It was the right decision for Ultimaker, and I am pleased with the extended warranty, and their willingness to give (old) users spare parts when they need them.

One thing bothers me though: the way that this news, of a fundamental change of direction for the company, was announced: especially considering that it is all over Twitter and basically everywhere you look that a dual extruder will be released in Q1 2015.

After researching various 3D printers, I decided on the UM2, and remembered vaguely seeing something somewhere about no more dual extruder upgrade. I spend about 30 mins googling and couldn't find a thing - and then days later happened, by luck, to come accross this thread while on the forums.

This bothers me that it is so hard to find such important information, and makes me think that they should at least put a prominent notice on the main website displaying this.

Otherwise I believe strongly in Ultimaker and think they have handled this whole thing relatively well

 

[Dim3nsioneer 557]

It's not that it will never be there for the UM2, just not from Ultimaker. Creatr Labs is working on a kit and they seem to be coming along nicely.

I think they're just a good solution for the PLA jams away from releasing it. One of the disadvantages of an all metal hotend...

 

You must have additional information which are not released in the thread you provided the link. I haven't seen anything in this thread there which tells me this dual extruder works at all. Being honest, I think it's a marketing hoax until someone proves me wrong.

 

[Blizz 53]

Dim3nsioneer: These days nothing is certain and hoaxes lurk around every corner

But I've been following the thread and obviously my statement above is based on the assumption that everything being said in there is true

 

[Daid 306]

nalath is that your personal view about the dual extrusion that is not working correct? No machine below 5k can handle it?

Btw how many machines have you tested?

 

Enough to draw this conclusion right now, but, with a small correction. I do think this machine has potential to work:

http://mendel-parts.com/en/3d-printers/orcabot-xxl.html

But, with the disclaimer that we did not test this one. (however, the dual-cart design solves a lot of issues for dual-extrusion)

Part of the decision to cancel the dual extrusion upgrade for the UM2 came from information from me. It's not just that dual-extrusion printing does not work up to the quality we want. It also effects single extrusion prints. The cold nozzle could really ruin your day by knocking over your prints. It's the reason I removed the 2nd nozzle from my home machine after a few weeks of having dual extrusion on it.

 

[DidierKlein 729]

Even that machine with a good idea is suffering from ooze ( you can see some orange filament on the white part in the video) and it's nearly double the price of the um2 (and i wouldn t be satisfied with the print quality shown in the video)

 

[tinkergnome 927]

Even that machine with a good idea is suffering from ooze ( you can see some orange filament on the white part in the video) and it's nearly double the price of the um2 (and i wouldn t be satisfied with the print quality shown in the video)

Yep, but... - take this idea, combine it with the speed and accuracy an Ultimaker stands for...halve the price... and deliver it just before next christmas...

I'm curious...

 

[randyinla 14]

I too am disappointed in this announcement re:no dual extrusion. However, I find myself disappointed in the delivery of the message and, more so, the final reasons given for cancellation, not the cancellation itself.

When Ultimaker first announced they weren't going to make their first release date, the reasons were all about heat and how the currently designed metal carriage needed to be redesigned. Ok. Sounds like a serious issue, but not unsolvable. I was excited to hear what little details were surfacing about teflon/ceramic this, aluminum redesign that, possibly some other material all together etc. Was like watching a mini drama where you had a gut feeling that everything would work out in the end, but the journey was rocky and captivating. The reassuring messages from Ultimaker that they were working on it were satisfying and made me respect them for tackling something they didn't foresee as having such issues in the beginning. Then the announcement of 1st qtr 2015 made me feel like they had beat it. They knew the issue, they came up with a solution and now just needed to implement it. Job well done, I thought.

Whenever there has been a new announcement, it has been plastered everywhere. This latest announcement about never delivering dual extrusion wasn't front page on the website, not on the U2 product page, not emailed/tweeted/Facebook'd news. It wasn't even posted in the main long thread re:dual extrusion. I heard of it because someone posted a reply to one of my threads that it wasn't going to happen. I corrected him, assured him they had it solved and we just had to wait. He directed me to this thread.

Whatever could be the cause? I thought to myself. Must be more heat issues or inability to prevent drooling when switching nozzles, something requiring another redesign of this or that... Whatever it is, these are problem solvers, tinkerers, engineers who have the world of open source resources & knowledge at their beck and call to triumph over any such metallurgical setbacks! But no. The final reasons given as to why such a huge project had finally succumbed to our limited knowledge of all things in the known universe... the reasons why this group of engineering warriors had fallen... "You will have scratches on your print and your prints may fall over". WHAT THE BLEEP?!? :shock: Delivered with a sort of, "you'll shoot your eye out!" parental stance.

Dear Ultimaker marketing person(s): I already get scratches on my prints. I already have tall prints knocked over and dragged around. Those things don't prevent me from using your wonderful product.

If the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) head is secured at the same height as the 1st head, how does this pose any more probability that you will get scratches or knocked over prints than already exist? Cannot z-hop be applied to the 2nd head as well as the 1st? I am used to sanding my prints to remove scratches. I am used to cleaning the build area of a failed angel-haired-mess and starting the print over. This doesn't seem like a reason for not having dual extrusion, imho. If dual extrusion could possibly blow up, cause a fire, or actually "shoot my eye out", then yes, those are good reasons.

Stating reasons that already exist with the current hardware as reasons for not adding dual extrusion seem completely disconnected and nonsensical to me. Like someone in marketing who has no knowledge of the actual issues came up with the statement. Imagine if Bugatti said, "We've decided not to release the new Bugatti Veyron because you may catch your trousers on the door while getting in." Maybe you just decided you've thrown enough time and money at it? I don't know. I would respect and accept that answer more than the one given. If it truly is scratches and knocking things over, nothing more challenging than already exists, just more of the same, then why not state that clearly on the dual kit page, offer no support etc. Let the consumer decide if they'd like to have a go at it. Together, as a community, if we had access to what you have done so far, we might possibly be able to figure out something to add to it. "Climb onto the shoulders of those before us" kind of thing. Making a throw away, misleading statement about scratches and closing the doors to the Wonka factory provide no shoulders and no progress.

I still love my U2 and respect all the time and effort that went into making it possible. I look forward to any other innovations Ultimaker has up its sleeve. I am not mad. I am frustrated, as I am sure you are.

 

[Daid 306]

Don't get me wrong. The other problems are also present. Oozing from the inactive nozzle will make your print look ugly. Printing with PVA clogs the nozzles. Calibrating the height of both nozzles exactly right is hard. And the teflon pieces deform easier due to the added heat.

But your failure rate on single extrusion prints goes up to 30-50% or something. Not just tall easy to knock over objects. Also large flat things can fail.

 

[klucky_13 0]

Maybe they should bring out a kit to remove all the extra material around the nozzle since it won't be used anyway.. Now we loose allot of printable space on the right of the platform due a compromise they made for an upgrade that will never come :-)

 

[marcus-wolschon 0]

I don't understand why Ultimaker is considering dual extrusion and dual nozzles to be the same thing.

you should look at hotends like the E3D Cyclops to get dual extrusion without sacrificing single extrusion.

[billdempsey 0]

I thought as much, there was a real lack of info and updates about the dual setup,

The dual hot end probably needs a new revolutionary reinvention, and we will just have to wait.

Although the CubeX Trio has many other annoying faults, it actually handles multiple extruders/nozzles pretty well. There are two things they do which make it work. First, the three nozzles are very precisely positioned at the exact same height from the build plate. This makes it critical to get the bed level, but it prevents the nozzles from scraping the top of the print. The second thing they do is provide a "wipe" device near the build plate. When switching between active nozzles during a print, it retracts, then moves the entire head off the build plate and wipes the end of the nozzle on a spring loaded edge so that none of the preceding color gets mixed into the new color. Maybe Ultimaker should look at that design for inspiration for the Ultimaker 3. It works.

 

[dpinparis 0]

Hello,

I ordered an Ultimaker 2 last week, which arrived 2 days ago. All the reviews stated that this will have support for dual extrusion, the printer comes with space for a second extruder. I was expecting it to have dual extrusion early this year. I only bought this because it was going to support dual extrusion.

When I bought this, nothing on your front page indicated it would not be supporting dual extrusion. Yesterday, I did a search to find out when exactly you would release it and I found another thread pointing to this one stating that it would be cancelled. I appreciate why you have done this, but I had no idea and only bought this because it was going to have dual extrusion soon! Why you only put this message in a forum I have no clue!

I printed a couple of test prints already, as I was not aware of your changed plans (still no idea why this is not in bold on your main product page to make it clear). I feel I have been grossly mis-sold a product. I like the printer, the prints are good quality. However, it does not do what I want it to do. I bought what I thought was going to be a dual extrusion printer, which turns out to be a single extrusion printer with space for another extruder that will never be officially supported.

I would like to send the printer back, as this does not do what I need it to do. Can you please advise? The order number is https://shop.ultimaker.com/orderdetails/1587943

Thanks,

D

 

[meduza 191]

Marcus: the E3D Cyclops is a very limited solution that really only is interesting for multi-color prints and not multi-material prints wich really is the holy grail of dual extrusion. Also it wastes a lot of material when changing color due to that the whole nozzle needs to be purged. Therefore: dual extrusion = dual nozzle.

BillDempsey: i Belive the wiping procedure used in the CubeX trio is patented by 3D Systems and can therefore not be implemented by UM.

If you ask me i belive that a solution with active nozzle-lift is the only way forward.

[ultiarjan 1,223]

I've seen some pretty nice results on a builder, 2 colors in one nozzle, with only a small wiping tower.

They claim goods results with pla & soluble material in a single nozzle, with soluble material with comparable print properties / temp as pla. But I have not actually seen it .....

 

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi D,

Thank you for your post.

Indeed it has been in our planning to make it available, unfortunately it has turned out otherwise.

The reviews you have read most likely date from the days when it was still in the planning, I can see how that has misinformed you. We still feel it has a lot to bring to the table, as a single extruder.

There are not a lot of reliable dual extrusion machines out there, make sure to know that what you need is available.

If you are confident about canceling your order, send me a DM before April 22nd.

You are entitled to send it back within 2 weeks after it is shipped out, and I am willing to extend this for you until the 22nd as a gesture of good will. After the 22nd we will consider the purchase definite.

Looking forward hearing from you,

 

[Labern 774]

@Sander

Just asking, when in Q2 were you going to start shipping printers with extra nozzles and PTFE Teflon parts?

[korneel 176]

@SandervG

I was wondering, in your earlier posts you were very confident that you were looking into something to compensate buyers for breaking the dual extrusion promise. since then it's been very quiet..

you also referenced that there would be a new section of the site that would be opened for users to work together on improvements of the UM2 and sharing some of R&D's findings..

I'd love to quote those points you made but the "forum" already killed my post twice so I don't dare doing this again. I'll just leave it at it's somewhere in this thread

[jonnybischof 60]

You (Team Ultimaker, @SandervG) should get in touch with @foehnsturm about that dual extrusion problem.

He's shown a brilliant solution using a toolhead interchange system instead of making an actual dual-extruder hotend.

Users can print the essential parts themselves, but you could offer a kit for the hotend, hardware and stuff that is needed. And integration into Cura would be very sweet

Edited May 26, 2015 by Guest

[ultiarjan 1,223]

Hi @jonnybischof, actually there is contact, not sure but I think they also talked to @foehnsturm, I've shown my UM2 version on video at an Ulti-evening, and talked to Erik, read the interview... think he likes what the community makes.

http://www.3duniverse.org/2015/05/21/erik-de-bruijn-of-ultimaker-reflects-on-3d-printing-collaboration-sharing-and-the-power-of-community/

I'm sure Ultimaker follows the stuff people make.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Guest

[foehnsturm 969]

Well, I actually had an email conversation with Sander. If I understood correctly UM is watching this and sees it as an alternative if some other project they are currently focusing on fails. Don't know more.

I'll follow this idea anyway. Looks to good to be abandoned. However my approach for a printer designed around a tool changer would/will be a corexy with smoothieboard and linear rails.

[ultibeet 1]

If you are a current user, and have not received the parts you are entitled for, we would be more then happy to help you out if you contact us when the parts need to be replaced. So you will enjoy the same benefits, and will not be left in the cold. That is not how we do things at Ultimaker.

 

Hello Sander,

i came in contact with the ultimaker support because my ultimaker 2 needs a new nozzle. The Problem is: they couldn't help me in the way you mentioned above so that i can get the extra nozzle + ptfe for existing users.

First i was forwarded to igo3d- no help - ultimaker support said on my second mail that hot end is not covered by warranty (i know) and i have to buy the spare parts.

So how i can get these parts (which is a very nice service for existing users, but how?)

(yeah, there were problems with my existing forum login, too)

many thanks

[gr5 2,167]

If you can't get the parts for free from Ultimaker, conside getting them here: 3dsolex.com. They are excellent quality and having the olsson block is nice because then you can change nozzles much easier in the future and get different size nozzles and such.

[ultibeet 1]

@SandervG thats it? Or all on holiday? I'm very disappointed at the moment that you (team ultimaker) don’t care at all about the promise you gave several times in this thread. Thumbs down!

@gr5 true, but i was happy with the original parts and the olsson block isn´t that cheap. So i hope to get a chance for the promised parts...

Edited August 15, 2015 by Guest

[Labern 774]

@ultibeet

I also went down this path and ended up with no free replacement. Apparently they asked the community and we wanted something different then what Sander stated earlier in the thread.

That's why new printers come with a hot end pack and not the 2 PTFE couplers and nozzles mentioned.

I think this was another statement that was made before any policy was actually put in place.

The flexibility of the Olsson block is great. Its has a few draw backs though but I think the amount of flexibility over weighs toughs.

[Dim3nsioneer 557]

The flexibility of the Olsson block is great. Its has a few draw backs though but I think the amount of flexibility over weighs toughs.

 

Sorry for being a bit off-topic: drawbacks? Such as... ? (I'm not (yet) aware of any drawbacks except it costs a few bucks...)