Bad layer bonding with ABS

[starjeff 46]

Hi guys,

I've spend lot of time there without actually posting anything so here i am.

And for my first post... i ask for your help

Here's a short story:

I own a Ultimaker 2 since november 2014 and i'm having a lot of fun with it. Awesome machine, i made my company buy one so i can play with it at work and at home.

For those interested in my work (mostly video-games and movie related, come and see me on Thingiverse and MyMiniFactory: StarJeff)

After printing big amounts of PLA, i decided two month ago to give ABS a try.

It was tricky at first (especially for the first layer to stick well to the glass) but i push through it and now i don't really want to go back to PLA... ABS looks much better and has way better mechanical use.

Here's come the part when i need your help. I'm currently trying my first 1:1 prop from Mass Effect entierly in ABS (I've done all the other one in PLA so far).

If anyone's curious, it's the M4-Shuriken. I'll post the updates later on the appropriate section.

First small piece looks OK.

I seem to have a problem with the larger piece: Bad layer bonding.

I can't seem to point out what parameter is causing this even if i do suspect some.

Here's my printing parameters

Material: ABS from Makershop (French 3d printer and material retailer)

Retractation enabled

Layer Height: 0.1mm

Shell Thickness: 0.8mm

B/T Thickness: 1mm

Fill density: 30%

Print speed: 50mm/s (I'm at the end of the roll so i print slowly)

Printing temp: 240°C

Bed Temp: 85°C (it's low but i use acetone/ABS juice so it sticks good)

Fans: 25%

Everything else is default settings.

My primary suspects:

The fans: I think they may cause excessive retractation but i like them on to reduce oozing. I'll try the same print with the fans off tomorrow to check this.

The material: I won't say it's awfully bad quality but it's not premium either. A lot of people complained about the quality of this particular brand so maybe the retraction is material dependent too.

The size: More volume means more retractation. What parameters should i change to reduce the retractation when printing big prints?

Could you please help me frame the suspect?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

StarJeff

 

[gr5 2,268]

240C is too cold if you want good layer bonding. I've printed ABS and it had "okay" layer bonding but compared to PLA it was weak. I'm not sure what the correct temp is but 240 or 245C is definitely on the cold end and you can get these layer separation issues.

Fan at 25% should be okay but I recommend with ABS that you put a box over the top and cover the front with clear plastic to get it up to about 60C inside (don't go much hotter than that because the steppers get too hot).

A photocopy paper box is the perfect size to put on top of the printer with room for the bowden:

 

[tsagos 8]

+1 for gr5

Higher temp

lower fan speed

enclosure

( still not enought for me though :( )

tip: when you are printing above 240 try, if possible, to print without retractions. Hot fillament will wear teflon piece faster.

 

[starjeff 46]

Thanks a lot guys.

At first i didn't want to go higher because i feared that it might get me nozzle clogs but it's worth a try.

I'll try printing at 245° or even 250°C, with 25% fans and no retractation (I'll have lots of stringing but that's not a major issue).

I have to see what i have in my house to build a nice enclosure.

I'll keep you posted later in the week for the results.

 

[tsagos 8]

the separation of the layers that you show at the picture is caused of cooling to fast, and for better layer bonding needs mutch bigger temps than 240c. At least with the fillaments I used so far.

What ABS are you using?

 

[starjeff 46]

It's a spool from Makershop, a french 3d printer and filament retailer. It's cheap but not high quality.

Since It's my last spool and i doubt the overall quality, i'll try FormFutura ABS filament for my next purchase (2 weeks)

 

[gr5 2,268]

I recommend you order one of those i2k isolator things here:

http://3dsolex.com/

And then also print around 260C. 245C is fine for parts that are going to sit on a shelf but if it needs any strength at all I don't think 245 is enough either.

The problem with printing at 260C all the time is your teflon isolator will not last very long - maybe 50 hours? Not sure. It will start to deform. The ABS probably won't care but when you switch back to PLA you will have lots of underextrusion problems.

 

[axsdenied 0]

I have two PTFE couplers, one for ABS and one for PLA.

[starjeff 46]

So, i did all those things:

Raising the temp a bit (245-250°C)

Closed almost all the open end (actually just the front one...)

Fans at 10%

And it worked. Thanks a lot!

 

[kvones 5]

I wonder if someone could help me with the following, related problem. I recently (and in fact accidentally, wanted to buy PLA but clicked the wrong button) bought a spool of Thermochromic colour change ABS for my research. I had never printed with ABS and after tweaking the settings found 100c build plate and 250c nozzle worked well for me. Unfortunately the thermochromic colour change properties of the material are destroyed at this temperature. Recommended maximum print temp: 235c.

While it still extrudes at this low temperature, layer adhesion is a big problem, and while printing a plant pot bulbasaur a big crack developed. Should I try an enclosure? What else could I try, being unable to raise the nozzle temp? Any input would be appreciated...

 

[owen 19]

I wonder if someone could help me with the following, related problem. I recently (and in fact accidentally, wanted to buy PLA but clicked the wrong button) bought a spool of Thermochromic colour change ABS for my research. I had never printed with ABS and after tweaking the settings found 100c build plate and 250c nozzle worked well for me. Unfortunately the thermochromic colour change properties of the material are destroyed at this temperature. Recommended maximum print temp: 235c.

While it still extrudes at this low temperature, layer adhesion is a big problem, and while printing a plant pot bulbasaur a big crack developed. Should I try an enclosure? What else could I try, being unable to raise the nozzle temp? Any input would be appreciated...

 

Try printing slower. This gives more time for the base layer to receive more heat from the nozzle.

 

[sfeldman 1]

240C is too cold if you want good layer bonding.  I've printed ABS and it had "okay" layer bonding but compared to PLA it was weak.  I'm not sure what the correct temp is but 240 or 245C is definitely on the cold end and you can get these layer separation issues.

Fan at 25% should be okay but I recommend with ABS that you put a box over the top and cover the front with clear plastic to get it up to about 60C inside (don't go much hotter than that because the steppers get too hot).

A photocopy paper box is the perfect size to put on top of the printer with room for the bowden:

This is genius. I have been all over ABS forums and this is by far the best and easiest solution I have seen for keeping in heat. It's as if the Ultimaker 2+ was made to have this box on top of it.

[jstoll 0]

On 4/10/2015 at 5:09 PM, kvones said:

I wonder if someone could help me with the following, related problem. I recently (and in fact accidentally, wanted to buy PLA but clicked the wrong button) bought a spool of Thermochromic colour change ABS for my research. I had never printed with ABS and after tweaking the settings found 100c build plate and 250c nozzle worked well for me. Unfortunately the thermochromic colour change properties of the material are destroyed at this temperature. Recommended maximum print temp: 235c.

While it still extrudes at this low temperature, layer adhesion is a big problem, and while printing a plant pot bulbasaur a big crack developed. Should I try an enclosure? What else could I try, being unable to raise the nozzle temp? Any input would be appreciated...

 

enclosure and slower cool down by not opening the enclosure until it's cooled down decreases the chance of cracking and warping use glue or hairspray for adhesion and brim and draft shield helps with adhesion, and a heated bed 100c ,the first layer 0% fan 3rd layer full fan speed based on the maximum fan speed chosen such as 60% ,initial layer speed 20mm/s, the temperature should be based on the specs chosen by the manufacture they know what the melting temperatures of their product due to the chemical composites used ,whatever fan and speed you have chosen decreasing the the cooling and/or speed will better the layer adhesion

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by jstoll

[Dustin 175]

@jstoll welcome to the community, but please don't go around bringing back topics from 6years ago.

[hovercraftsheehy 0]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:17 PM, Dustin said:

@jstoll welcome to the community, but please don't go around bringing back topics from 6years ago.

I still found this topic helpful! What's wrong with brining up topics form 6 years ago?! Everything in this post is still pretty relevant for printing ABS.

[gr5 2,268]

I agree!  When people google "bad layer abs", they should get the answer they need with the latest information and not have to start a new topic and wait for an answer.  Especially if the 6 year old topic has useful information.