TheRealJoost
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Posts posted by TheRealJoost
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8 hours ago, TAFMan said:
Did you ever receive S5 samples?
Nope didn't. Local supplier charging 100 bucks for any small part printed. I know its not much but as a (very) small company we watch every penny going out. Stratasys printed test parts within days, no questions no money asked. Now they weren't very good (their bad) and an S5 (or rather a couple of S5 printers) is probably still the way to go, but I would have liked seeing an actual output. Now with CV19 our funding is delayed so it will be a while before we're getting back to this.
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On 3/5/2020 at 1:45 AM, nallath said:
In all their "wisdom" apple decided to add a number of extra hoops that developers have to jump through. We haven't jumped through them yet, so that's why the message shows up all of the sudden.
Nah, the requirement for codesigning and notarizing your app has been clear for many moons now. Get with the program.
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3 hours ago, orangepeel said:
This post grew much longer than I expected, but hope it helps! FDM 3D printing has really gotten much better over the past 10 years. I see Ultimaker where Stratasys was 10 years ago.... hopefully they won't make the same mistakes. take care!
Yes thanks @orangepeel, I am starting to get a much clearer picture of Stratasys after all the discussion above. Additionally, I have spoken to a local engineer who uses Stratasys and other brand printers in the bio industry. He was not too pleased with the Stratasys printers he has (I forgot the specific models but they are pre F123 series). He mentioned the same maintenance costs as you listed and said that one could expect the Stratasys printers to be off line fairly regularly i.e. some failure for which the maintenance crew needs to come out.
We also were able to get Stratasys to print our enclosures and the results were most surprising. Supposedly printed on one of their F123 series, they look bubbly and zitty as if heavily under extruded. Certainly not what the sales visit showed! I wondered why they even bothered to send it to us. Haven't gotten anything back from local UM yet. They do not appear to be set up to handle this type of customer service; slow and we have to pay a bit for the demo (I don't care for the money but it all feels a bit flimsy). Now if the UM comes through with better results, I cannot justify paying 5x more for a Strat printer - in particular in light of the issues you discuss also.
Will see, hopefully the UM prints come in soon.
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21 hours ago, geert_2 said:
STL-files: (the cone is named "pilaartest" here). Print them alone for the hardest test. But if you would want to test the cone with a dummy tower for comparison, then load the dummy next to the cone, and scale its height so that it is just a few layers higher than the cone.
Thanks Geert!
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@geert_2 Thanks Geert, appreciate your comments and recommendations. The test model you've got there looks like a good test - is it available somewhere? Can you tell us what we're looking at in the printed results? It seems you have a different layer height between the left and right models but I cannot tell for certain. Which was this printed on, a 5S?
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39 minutes ago, SandervG said:
Hi Joost, thank you for your response.
I don't remember seeing that message and apologies if it went unanswered. I also organize the tradeshows we attend, so it's not uncommon that I'll be traveling, or pretty busy organizing such an event. But that should not be an excuse. Have you also tried any of the other 'official' channels? I mean, it's important that when you knock, someone answers. But it's also important to knock at the right door. The community would not be the immediate right door in this case but I think I should be able to help. I'll send you a contact to our team in the US via a DM who will be able to follow up and send you a printed part upon your request.
Yes I did knock on what I considered the right doors first, the community was my last resort. GR5 was most helpful and I finally got hold of a USA support person. By that time I had alternate spare parts coming in and the UM proposed solution to purchase and install an entirely new feeder motor + gear was not attractive to me. In part because of the prospect to have to do that on possibly all UM2+ we have. Now that whole lot will be retired and I won't bother with it anylonger.
Long ago I learned that great products do not create great customer partnerships, its great customer service that does.
QuoteAs far as materials, could this be something for you? https://marketplace.ultimaker.com/app/cura/materials/filamentive/Filamentive_ASA_2019
You can find other options via: https://marketplace.ultimaker.com/app/cura/materials?filter=uV
Oh nice, thanks for those references, will check that out.
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4 hours ago, SandervG said:
@TheRealJoost, I also read you mentioned you didn't find the customer support too impressive. Could I ask you about your encounter too (via a DM)? If there are any areas on which we can improve, we would love to hear about it.
Just look me up on a recent request for a gear.... I also DMed you at the time .... crickets. Customer service being all over a high value discussion (such as these) and not caring for a low value question is a bad sign for getting real help when you need it in my experience.
QuoteI also thought about this. Such a part has only one goal, and that is to convince you about the capabilities of their printer. It's very unlikely they'll bring a print with flaws, even if it means printing a part 10 times over to finally get it. Best rule of thumb would be to see a part being printed with your configuration and see what quality comes out.
Of course they show the best side of their butt at these sales calls. Thats why I requested them to print one of our designs. I like to do the same with the S5 - where can I get a test print done in the USA?
The first priority is to get prints that are close to the finished product. Some post processing is fine (including sending the parts of to a spray painter). The prints I have seen from the S5 (pictures, youtubes, not hold in hand) look fine for a printer in its price range but are not what I saw from Stratasys. I am attracted to the points brought up above on having more then 1 printer and doing maintenance ourself - I need convincing on that quality aspect.
QuoteI've also seen mention of the materials available, to give you an indication please visit this page and use the filter above to get an idea about which filaments you can effortlessly use on an Ultimaker. We have a collaboration with each of these partners and for the materials shown on that page we have created print profiles tailored to an Ultimaker S5 / S3. More materials are being added almost weekly.
I am well aware of the material assortment. I generally print with colorfabb and have good results with it. We have very boring needs (so a large assortment of filaments is not necessarily interesting to us); we only print electronic enclosures - at the moment only indoors but would like an outdoors solution also. Is there an ASA like material that is UM compatible (i.e. ABS + UV protection)
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7 hours ago, P3D said:
Don't ever believe those sales people unless the part is printed before your eyes, with the exact machine you will get, using the exact material you'll be printing with. You never know what kind of post-processing they did, and what machine they really printed the parts with - and you probably don't want to print with a 0,15mm Nozzle at 0,06mm layer height, as then your parts are gonna take forever.
Burned by some slippery salesguy before have you? (grin). I know they are putting their best stuff on the table, it always printed like that right out of the gate, and the printer never failed. Yep, seen all that. But the prints were impressive and (according to what was said) done on the printer we're interested in. We did talk about layer heights, nozzle sizes and print speed and differences between various print outs were fairly easy to see. Some parts had repetition marks (as if a driver/bed had a bit of oscillation) but most look good. Now I just have to vefiry how much of their story was fake 😉
QuoteOnce again I have to stress that you should do a very, very thorough comparison between buying a 3D printer and letting someone else print your parts. Get some quotes, put some test parts on 3Dhubs and see what prices you get with different print technologies for the amount of parts you want to be manufacturing, and then calculate if buying a printer is really worth it.
Agreed, I am doing due dilligence now - this thread is part of it!
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4 hours ago, andrefccastro said:
That's the point!
From what I have seen in additive manufacturing trade fairs in comparison to what I have orders to part suppliers, those parts are always worked and printed under special conditions for commercial and marketing purposes.I hear ya and completely agree - that is why I requested them to print one of our designs at their local facility. I intend to be there to see them do it.
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1 hour ago, geert_2 said:
I just think about this: if you live in Belgium, the Netherlands or West Germany: we have an independant and quite good distributor of 3D-printers from various brands and various technologies: the company Trideus,
As mentioned, I am in the USA - everything works in silos here 🙂
QuoteConcerning prices for low-volume injection moulds (max 10000 pieces) in aluminum: I thought these started at around 2000 euro at Protolabs, depending on complexity and required surface quality? If you are going to run 1000 copies per year on a 3D-printer, it might cost a lot more: that is 4 per day (250 working days/year), and if each would require almost a day to print, you need 4 printers, plus people to handle them. But I have no experience with Protolabs, Materialise or similar companies, so I don't know their quality and service.
I would love to meet your tool maker! The lowest quote we've received was 8000 bucks from an unknown shop in China. It is hard to just think a mould costs "just 2000", all depends on the complexities, number of parts and what not else... And yes, we have that spreadsheet with tool costs, material costs, shipping costs, risks weighing one thing vs another. Like I said, it is not a straight forward decision.
Using easy math; our designs could print on an Stratasys about 20 complete systems/week keeping the machine 90% occupied. So just a 1000 parts per year - that is enough to get us going. If we're requiring more, injection moulding is next (or a second printer) and this printer can then operate for pure prototypes of specialty one-offs.
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2 hours ago, andrefccastro said:
I really understand your point because I work in the consumer good industry and know the reality of the injection moulding. Thats why we started the 3D printing office - mainly for prototypes - and know we are thinking about using CF filament for final parts due to the low volume per year.
My 2 Ultimaker 3 have more than 2000hrs and didn't replaced the head yet. There are some problems it's true (don't know the S5 model) but if it were me today, I would go for the Ultimaker again. If your F370 has problems you need to wait for the technician and with Ultimaker you can do it for yourself. For example, I don't ask for the re-seller's help because he is not very customer friendly. If you take care and plan your prints with common sense, the difference between two printer will pay up.
Repairing/doing maintenance ourselves is very attractive to me - being an engineer and all (though it is not necessarily good business practise). We are a small start up so costs to matter. Stratasys quoted us USD 4000/year for maintenance (excluding the tool head). Thats a UM3 on an annual basis!
QuoteRegarding the print qualities, if I choose the proper core and settings I can achieve the same results as the F370.
That is quite a statement! Do you have example pix to share? We had the Stratasys boys over this morning and they pulled example parts from their suitcase like no tomorrow, all most excellent quality. Some with a surface finish which made it impossible to tell it was a 3D printed part. I have never seen anything like this from UM printers but would love to be corrected. A realistic annual maintenance cost for any of the F123 series printers is 5000/year (service + tool head). Plastic feed is $3.60/cubic inch. This is not cheap but from the quality I have seen this morning, it might be justified.
We got Stratasys to test print our design so that'll tell how well the end result will look. Now I want to set up a comparisson with a 5S, hopefully we can arrange this in the USA somewhere.
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2 hours ago, geert_2 said:
Depending on what "small quantities" are, and on the variations in your models (all identical or not), you could also consider low-cost injection moulding in aluminum moulds. For example at companies like Protolabs, or maybe also Materialise. Then you have a more professional look and sturdier models without layer lines that can initiate cracks. Low volume production is their specialty. You can submit a design and get an online quote. If you need only 10 parts, or if you need variations in models, this might not be worth it, but if you need 100 or 1000 identical parts, it might be?
If you want to buy a Stratasys machine, be sure to go to companies that have the same one in use, or go to schools or universities, and have a look at the quality and talk about their experiences. Collegues of mine do have a couple of Stratasys (but I don't know the types, it's in another campus), and they were not impressed with customer service and honesty: too much things weren't told by the representatives, about material costs, required maintenance and spare parts, required post-processing of the prints and the equipment needed for that, pricing (insane differences between their own sales people), ventilation requirements,... While print quality was okay, all this left a bad taste. This was 4 years ago, so I don't know how things have evolved. But anyway, be sure to inform yourself very well about those aspects before starting any negotiations, so that there are no hidden surprises.
Injection moulding is of course the first thing we have gone after and still pursue. Cost of the (family) mould ranges between 25-45K depending on location and manufacturer. That does not include the expected trips to location to solve problems, fix the mould and shipping costs/delays (oversees if from China, takes a month and just shipping plastic parts means shipping a lot of air).
I have worked with injection moulding in the past quite often and absolutly hate the scene. We never had high quantities (up to 2000/year) of anything and I think that just is asking for problems. With high quanties, the moulding machines stay occupied and can be optimized to quality.
With the 3D printed part quality becoming better and better, I like to see if it is possible to stay away from injection moulding all together (again, low quantities, couple of hundred may be 1000/year). Eventually this is where we all would want to go and shed reliance on moulding companies - perhaps I am pushing it too early.
I have printed on much smaller model Stratasys and found the parts to be very acceptable, sadly I have no access to any of the F123 series.
And on customer service; I hear ya. Already not impressed with Stratasys so far (UM customer service from the Netherlands wasn't too impressive either btw). I will need to ask that sales guy to list out all the stuff needed beyond the printer itself. Plastic filament costs are an ongoing cost of course, but I did read that the head requires replacing after 1500 hours also (1500hrs is nothing, no?). I wonder what else is just 'normal' maintenance for these machines. So far the sales dept. isn't very forth coming.
All in all, I think it is quite difficult to pick a machine that is the best average to fit our problem domain. Thanks for your considerate answer!
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5 hours ago, P3D said:
The print quality I saw so far from the F370 didn't impress me at all, considering the price of the machine. I'd order test parts printed on F370 and S5, as well as SLS/MJF printed parts before committing to buy a machine. Maybe just ordering SLS/MJF parts at an external supplier and not buying a printer would also be a viable option?
Can you share pictures of what you printed? Where these complex parts, large parts anything in particular that you felt under the mark? I like your suggestion to order test parts. Stratasys charged a couple of hundred bucks for 5 100x100mm rounded square shells, but printed on a Objet I think - perhaps worth the test money. I have no access to an S5 sadly. Continually purchasing 3D printed parts is not an economical viable option.
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6 hours ago, andrefccastro said:
In my opinion I would go for the S5 Pro Bundle. With the cost of one F370 you can buy two or three S5 and save money.
Besides of having more flexibility and capacity in production you have a filament system capable of handling third party materials.
Thanks for the suggestion - adding on to what you mentioned; the S5 would be controllable from the macs we have, unlike the F370 which requires a PC running GrabCAD. However, do you have experience with the S5 maintainability and reliability? I have a few UM2+ machines (again a whole different beast of course) and had initially good experiences but as of late found the reliability and Ultimaker's response to provide customer service .... well, irritating. Having 2, 3, machines that are all mediocre and require baby sitting is actually 2, 3 problems...
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Yep, I know this is an ultimaker forum. I'd be interested to know if there is anyone here with Stratasys F170, F270 or F370 experience as well as S5 experience. I have budget to purchase a Stratasys F370. The intend is to run small production quantities of electronic enclosures with simple/moderate detail. I envision some post print operation (sealer, UV protection, paint, etc) to finalize the print.
The F370 is pricey (about 60K here in the USA), an alternative is to run multiple F170 or 5S printers to increase production volume - as long as the print quality is sufficient (or similar to F370) and reliability is high.
I know the F370 and 5S are very different printers in many respects, however, one cannot simply make a linear comparisson of price to determine the best printer for the job. Your thoughts and observations are most welcome.
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7 hours ago, dxp said:
POM is almost impossible to glue. But the Epoxi will provide a form-fit.
Thanks for the references to the metal gears. I've seen those but would like to avoid a metal-plastic interface, generally the plastic goes quickly (depending on the finish of the metal gear). However, this might be the ticket to get the UM printer going for a while if gluing does not hold.
LocTite makes some epoxy for glueing Delrin, it needs heated curing. Might need to give that a try.
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Quote
...or print one?
Thats a little difficult to do right now 😐
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11 hours ago, dxp said:
Why not change to bondtech?
I have a bondtech extruder, it interfaces to the 11T gear but does not include it. Is there a bondtech motor+gear I don't know of?
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11 hours ago, tinkergnome said:
If i remember right, this was a common problem for the first batches of UM2+ feeders.
The shape of the gear wheel and the manufacturing process was changed later. Since then - only the whole stepper motor with the gear wheel already assembled on the motor shaft is available as a spare part (on request).
Even if the originally used gear wheel would be available, it would come loose again after a while.
You can try to glue it in place with a drop of epoxy (or buy the longer version from the link above first).
I'm not sure how long it will work, but it's worth a try.
I did purchase from AliExpress a while ago - package never arrived (as usual), might try that epoxy though bonding metal and delrin (?) is never easy if at all possible. Probably best to swap out for a new motor+gear in that case.
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@ultiarjan thanks. None of the resellers here seem to carry this gear. What a stupid thing to have a 2500 bucks device sit idle for a 2.10 part. I can't even _print_ a replacement because this gear keeps slipping off.
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So I am quite at a loss what I should do next here. @SandervG, I have replied to your msg above, I have sent you a direct mail also. I understand there is more money in selling a new Ultimaker printer then providing a measely plastic gear. Customer service no longer important?
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9 hours ago, SandervG said:
Hi @TheRealJoost,
Just to make sure we're talking about the same part, can you share the partnumber (if you know it), or a picture of the part that you need?
Hoi Sander, thanks for getting in here; its the small gear (11 teeth) on the feeder motor - see image from aliexpress Curven submitted above. An official gear would be nice to get. Any idea why the gear would be slipping off? Have you guys seen this? I thought gear wear out would be teeth issues, not slow shaft slippin'
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10 hours ago, Curven said:
Hope someone from Ultimaker will help you...
@SandervG any advise on a way to find an official spare part?
Is this the part you need to replace?
If you don't find official replacement part it would be a solution...
Yep, its that small one (11 teeth). I haven't had much luck on aliexpress but for that price its worth a shot, thanks for the reference
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Thanks @Curven, that was my first go-to resource, nobody has this gear in stock/sells it. Hence my question here.
Stratasys F170..F370
in UltiMaker 3D printers
Posted
Jeremy from 3DUniverse was kind enough to print out one of our sensor products on an S5 in black tough PLA (yay Jeremy!). The results are excellent, a very nice surprise. The results from the F370 cannot be compared to this S5 output - Stratasys fails badly in multiple categories for me: a) their print quality was bad/low, b) their customer service apparently didn't care too much for a small account such as us, and c) as others also remarked on, Stratasys annual maintenance costs are a significant pain for questionable value. Besides that, materials for the S5 are at a lower cost, support material for the S5 is more eco friendly, for the same F370 budget we can get several S5 machines, if anything fails I would feel comfortable to do my own repairs on an S5 (not that I should/would, but I _can_).
So the pendulum swung fairly strongly towards the Ultimaker S5 for me. I must say, I am surprised - did not expect a 60,000 machine to be outclassed so clearly by a 10,000 machine. For now, I can't see "the catch", perhaps there isn't one?