Nylforce Carbon Fiber- Fiber Force (Italy)

[Artiz 27]

I've just received some Nylforce Carbon Fiber from iMakr. It's made by Fiber Force in Italy.

Fabbaloo did a quick write up here... but as yet not that much information to be found... hence the new thread.

I've been using the XT-CF20 with a lot of success in designing and printing out speargun parts for the last year or so but when I caught wind of a Nylon/Carbon mix I was very interested... and mainly due to the added strength potential of such a mix.

It took a while to finally get a 500 gram reel which cost £39 + £6.50 delivery from iMakr...

First impressions on opening were that the filament looked a little thin... which it is but only slightly... the UM2 standard feed doesn't cope with it particularly well as the filament is extremely hard... you do need to be aware that if it doesn't seem to be feeding properly then you will need to give it a manual push past the more often than not initial grinding of the filament.

I started off with Fiber Forces recommended settings for the UM2: --Extruder temp. 255°C --Flow 120% --speed 40 mm/s --bed temp. 70°C + strong fixing hairspray (+ gcode with raft) --cooling fan 80%

After a few test prints and messing around I'm now up to 260C with a material flow for the initial raft at 1000% so that it actually comes out of the nozzle... I have an Olsson block with a SS nozzle (0.4). Speed is also right down to 20mm/s. I reduce the material flow once the part begins to print down to 500% and then slowly down to around 200%... but haven't gone below that mark yet...

As with other Carbon mixes the real problem is to get it to stick to the build plate... I'm using a urethane spray varnish which works OK but as my particularly large print progresses the whole thing just continually comes away from the build plate. I have now resorted to printing out the raft and then when the actual print itself starts I pause and bond (urethane glue) down the edges of the raft to stop it from contracting/shrinking and disengaging itself from the build plate completely... which has happened twice now.

This is most definitely the most difficult filament I have ever used to get a print started but also the first time I have tried nylon so I obviously have a lot of catching up to do.

What is very encouraging is the strength of the failed prints... unbelievably strong material when it has actually printed.. layer adhesion was spot on with one of my failed prints and not so good with the other one so results still a little mixed yet.

So far certainly not an easy filament to work with but still encouraging enough to stick at it... I am going big with this print though so smaller prints should be much easier than my marathon efforts here. However if I can actually get this filament to print out an entire handle assembly it will not only be quite some achievement in itself... but the real prize would be the finish... the finished prints really do look quite spectacular and initial results regarding strength have the potential for something very special indeed... here's hoping!

 

As I progress I will continue to add updates...

Edited September 7, 2016 by Guest

[valcrow 144]

Funny, I just started testing this today as well!

Most of your observations are pretty much same as mine with the exception of the temperature and flow. Mine is flowing perfectly fine at normal 100% 240C-250C. I've been able to print my knife handle with good layer bonding and like you said, pretty much indestructible stuff and really awesome finish. Similar to Colorfabb's CF, but less matte. I printed at 90 microns and it was smooth with almost no visible layer lines. The bottom layer looked like a carbon weave since it was smooth (from the glass) and weave like due to the parallel lines of the first layer.

I had similar warping issues, I tested printing on bare glass from 20C, 60C, 100C with only minor success. (major warping each time). I tried gluestick with not much more success.

Will try hairspray and other tactics soon as well.

Good to see other people testing as well I also have the glass fiber and wood from them so I'll test those too.

[Artiz 27]

Funny, I just started testing this today as well!

Most of your observations are pretty much same as mine with the exception of the temperature and flow. Mine is flowing perfectly fine at normal 100% 240C-250C. I've been able to print my knife handle with good layer bonding and like you said, pretty much indestructible stuff and really awesome finish. Similar to Colorfabb's CF, but less matte. I printed at 90 microns and it was smooth with almost no visible layer lines. The bottom layer looked like a carbon weave since it was smooth (from the glass) and weave like due to the parallel lines of the first layer.

I had similar warping issues, I tested printing on bare glass from 20C, 60C, 100C with only minor success. (major warping each time). I tried gluestick with not much more success.

Will try hairspray and other tactics soon as well.

Good to see other people testing as well :DI also have the glass fiber and wood from them so I'll test those too.

 

Cool thanks for the feedback... nice to know I'm not alone.

I can only manage to get it to stick at all with the Flow cranked up so can I ask what nozzle/hotend you are using... and feeder etc...

The 70C that Fiber Force recommends seems to be the optimum for my set up but I still have to use a lot of my urethane spray and then also urethane bond to keep the whole thing in place... but once it gets going it seems to print very well... I went for .15 microns which does leave a little to be desired but still looks and feels absolutely amazing.

My current 25 hr print is now coming along very nicely with good layer adhesion as well as the beginnings of a reasonable outer finish... I will still need to sand it down a little and then seal it for bonding the other half of the handle assembly together... so another 25-30 hour print to follow this one before I can really see the results...

Edited September 11, 2016 by Guest

[Artiz 27]

The print is moving along nicely and about halfway through... my first 2 attempts became unattached to the build plate which was set at 70C as recommended. I used a urethane matt varnish/sealer on the plate both times but increased the spray for the second attempt... to no avail.

This (3rd) time I waited until the raft had been printed and the first layer of the print itself was evident before pausing and applying a very strong urethane bonding glue all around the edge of the raft which you can see below... after drying this tactic finally stopped the edges warping which in turn previously led to the entire raft becoming detached.

 

I've got to say that I am so far extremely impressed that someone has actually been able to combine Nylon and Carbon into a single printable filament... it really is quite extraordinary... both in looks and strength wise... together with its improving 'workability' this may indeed  just be what people like to call a 'game changer'... the strength and durability of this printed speargun handle is looking easily equal to any of it's commercially available counterparts... and for me personally 10 x better of course cos I designed it.

I look forward to the completion of this half (fingers crossed) and will of course post up a picture of the finished print when done.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Guest

[valcrow 144]

You're quite ambitious trying such a large part.

Anyways, today, Success!! Finally able to print without a super warped print. Just slightly warped at the edges maybe 0.8mm at the extreme. (whereas the earliest test was over 1.4mm lift.

The magic solution seems to be the sheets that come with the advance printing kit from Ultimaker. It's a soft-ish sheet that you stick onto the glass. This stuff held on nicely to the print while printing and released without destroying itself after (so it's not a 1 use trick). Interestingly, bed temperature was set to 0. (room temp)

[Artiz 27]

You're quite ambitious trying such a large part.

Anyways, today, Success!! Finally able to print without a super warped print. Just slightly warped at the edges maybe 0.8mm at the extreme. (whereas the earliest test was over 1.4mm lift.

The magic solution seems to be the sheets that come with the advance printing kit from Ultimaker. It's a soft-ish sheet that you stick onto the glass. This stuff held on nicely to the print while printing and released without destroying itself after (so it's not a 1 use trick). Interestingly, bed temperature was set to 0. (room temp)

Great discovery... I presume you can only get those adhesive sheets with the advance printing kit though?

Having had much success with some of my ambitious large prints (actually they all are) using XT-CF20 I didn't think it was worth trying other filaments but this is looking very promising with it's added strength and (possible) extended durability... glad I've tried it.

Do you think some kind of tape could be as good as your adhesive sheets?

P.S. I do rather like your knives by the way...

Edited September 8, 2016 by Guest

[valcrow 144]

You're quite ambitious trying such a large part.

Anyways, today, Success!! Finally able to print without a super warped print. Just slightly warped at the edges maybe 0.8mm at the extreme. (whereas the earliest test was over 1.4mm lift.

The magic solution seems to be the sheets that come with the advance printing kit from Ultimaker. It's a soft-ish sheet that you stick onto the glass. This stuff held on nicely to the print while printing and released without destroying itself after (so it's not a 1 use trick). Interestingly, bed temperature was set to 0. (room temp)

Great discovery... I presume you can only get those adhesive sheets with the advance printing kit though?

Having had much success with some of my ambitious large prints (actually they all are) using XT-CF20 I didn't think it was worth trying other filaments but this is looking very promising with it's added strength and (possible) extended durability... glad I've tried it.

Do you think some kind of tape could be as good as your adhesive sheets?

P.S. I do rather like your knives by the way...

You could maybe try blue tape + alcohol? I've never had Blue tape + alcohol not stick. The only problem is the tape itself may lift but will keep the part on the bed most of the time.

I have tried XT_CF20 numerous times and while it looks great and feels great, the strength feels worse than regular PLA. The layer bonding is REALLY terrible unless you print really slow and hot.

This italy stuff is REALLY strong in comparison I tried to break a few pieces and had a hard time. I'll try out the glass fiber tomorrow now that I know the CF works.

[Artiz 27]

You could maybe try blue tape + alcohol? I've never had Blue tape + alcohol not stick. The only problem is the tape itself may lift but will keep the part on the bed most of the time.

I have tried XT_CF20 numerous times and while it looks great and feels great, the strength feels worse than regular PLA. The layer bonding is REALLY terrible unless you print really slow and hot.

This italy stuff is REALLY strong in comparison I tried to break a few pieces and had a hard time. I'll try out the glass fiber tomorrow now that I know the CF works.

Agreed XT-CF20 = very hot and quite slow to print... but after bonding and a couple of coats of urethane varnish its as tough as old boots and very much at ease under the sea...

I've been using these prototype guns since early July...

XT-CF20 is also considerably heavier than this Nyleforce... and I'm yet to seal and test so a little way to go to actually beat Colorfabb's carbon mix just yet but definitely promising.

I'll look forward to your thoughts on the Glass fiber...

[valcrow 144]

Whoa, that's cool!

What do you do with them? fishing (I mean obviously from the video). But do you spear one and then bag em then go catch another? Or it's like a 1 fish/swim type thing? Is it for sport/work/hobby?

Just curious why you need carbon fiber for this purpose? Wouldn't some other filament work? like polycarb? Nylon tends to absorb water, is that not a worry?

I appear to have a lot of questions

[Artiz 27]

Whoa, that's cool!

What do you do with them? fishing (I mean obviously from the video). But do you spear one and then bag em then go catch another? Or it's like a 1 fish/swim type thing? Is it for sport/work/hobby?

Just curious why you need carbon fiber for this purpose? Wouldn't some other filament work? like polycarb? Nylon tends to absorb water, is that not a worry?

I appear to have a lot of questions

 

I'd better answer them then. I've been spearfishing for more than 40 years and also in and out of 3D design employment for the last 20 years so passion/hobby/work/obsession all rolled into one. Only bought my printers to make spearguns really... along with all the allied equipment that goes with it of course.

I have tested out quite a few different plastics but the preference for Carbon mixes come from the reliability/accuracy of the final 3D print... mainly because the parts need to accurately fit with things like the barrel and the trigger mechanism etc... the coefficient of variation with XT-CF20 is the best I have found so far... the 'workability' of the material is also very good so it will take some beating.

The nylon/water thing is obviously of interest/concern but after sealing it real testing can then begin.

I am very interested in polycarb and probably next on the list...

[Artiz 27]

UPDATE...

Bogus material flow settings in my original post are due to feeder issues which I have now resolved so please ignore...

Successful settings are pretty much the same as recommended by Fiber Force but I do put the material flow up to 150% for the float and then reduce back to 120% for the print itself.

It does seem advisable to get the print started at a 50% speed though... slower the better increasing as the print stabilises itself. For me 260C is still looking the right temp but I will try reducing/testing as the other half takes shape. I have not used retraction and the fans seemed to be drying the material too quickly so I turned them off.

I wish now that I had been a bit more ambitious with the layer height... these prints are at .15 but for a few extra hours I may have got a better finish at .1 or even perhaps slightly lower. I still have a bit more post print work but will complete this after I have bonded the two halves of the handle assembly together... still room for some aesthetic improvements.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Guest

[Artiz 27]

 

 

 

In conclusion I'd have to say that this is a reasonably good material... using my unusually large models as an example the final prints are OK. I think this material will take much lower layer heights than I used giving it a much cleaner finish than I achieved... although I am still reasonably happy with my end results.

The down side for me is that this material is not heavy enough for my personal projects... it doesn't have the 'feel' that I am looking for in a prototype speargun handle... it also doesn't have as much post print 'workability' as other carbon mixes... not so easy to sand down to a smooth finish and I also noticed some final warping when I bonded both sides of the handle assembly which meant I had to re-drill my holes... this material is not ideal for drilling. The other issues with this material is that it does suffer from nozzle blockages as well as the occasional feeder problem which has ruined more than a few prints.

Getting it to stick to the build plate is problematic but perhaps 3DSHOP.CA has found the perfect answer (above) to that problem with Ultimaker's adhesive sheets... I think Fiber Force also do a specialised fixing spray so probably a good idea to invest in either one of those if you plan to use this material.

Strength wise it does seem pretty good although I did drop my handle and a piece of the butt broke cleanly off so it is still somewhat limited by layer adhesion at the 0.15 setting. This material is also slightly more flexible than other carbon mixes which may result in an extended durability... time will tell.

LastIy, I found urethane glue and urethane sealer/varnish performs well with this filament...

Final Settings:

Nozzle 260C

Buildplate 70C

Material Flow 150-120%

No Fans

No Retraction

Speed 40mm/s but starting at 50% building up as the print progresses

Layer height .15

Edited September 16, 2016 by Guest

[Danielrug05 0]

Hi, I am going to revive this topic with an update.

Today i started to test the ePA-CF (Nylon based w/20% carbon fiber) to print a tensile streght test specimen, with the following inputs:

Nozzle temp: 250 °C

Bed temp: 80°C

Print speed: 40 mm/s

Build plate adhesion tipe: brim / 8 mm wide (i used only this, not hairspray, not nothing)

Layer height: 0.15 mm

¡Good news! it didn´t present warping at all during the printing, only when i took it off the build plate (glass) i could notice an almost inperceptible warping.

The only thing i didn´t like was that the first layer presented a little amount of material accumulation at the specien edges as you can see in the picture

i don´t know if it was because of the low print speed y chose for the outer walls (20 mm/s, CURA applies half the printing speed to the outer walls)

How can i fix this?

Thank you all

[valcrow 144]

You can open up the speed settings by clicking on the little gear icon and adding the expert speeds. Set them all to the same if you like then.

Looks quite nice though!