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Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding


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Posted (edited) · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

I've been trying to get a decent print with PVA orPET-G supports for PLA printing, and I've been having almost great prints with very bad extrusion about a CM up. The print is ok, the layer adhesion on the tower sucks and the tower will break there later in the print, a couple cm later.

 

I'm using a fairly new dual nozzle set up, but it seems to print dual PLA reasonable well.

ZH60DtJw4-qlwts-UdcVdqdN3H8YIYEJfkU7NGJZ

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PUTGuZspJpkdKli72

 

What can I do to improve the stability of the tower?

 

It seems it would be awesome to have a core printed in just one filament, to keep it stronger, but I'd like to know what I can do now. Thanks!

Edited by AbeFM
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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Ah! The "standby" temp is NOT the temp the nozzle sits at when not in use. "Standby" temp is the temp at which it begins printing while heating up to begin a new layer. I'll try increasing that.

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    What slicer are you talking about?

    This is the definition of standby temp, which I read as the same as your original assumption: When not in use, this is the temp it is waiting at.

    Standby_Temperature.jpg.dfce6078aa129bbc9ef2a6af759263f7.jpg

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding
    On 5/12/2018 at 7:23 AM, ultiarjan said:

    I find increasing the prime tower thickness will increase it's reliability;

     

    image.thumb.png.65c68337dfa29cfea2baf9a89f396886.png

    This works as long as the ratio of the thickness and the size lets the individual circles touch and form a solid structure.

     

    There's a density calculation which would be beneficial if it were done here. Adding a lot of "Prime Tower Purge Volume", can help here, just letting stuff get up to temp.

     

     

    On 5/12/2018 at 2:45 AM, kmanstudios said:

    What slicer are you talking about?

    This is the definition of standby temp, which I read as the same as your original assumption: When not in use, this is the temp it is waiting at.

    Standby_Temperature.jpg.dfce6078aa129bbc9ef2a6af759263f7.jpg

     

    There are 3 temperatures per nozzle that are used, four counting first layer:

     

    Ext#    Color    Print Standby    Lowest    Starts
    A    Black    205    202    190    <=195 (Set 205)
    B    Blue    192    195    177    ~188 (set 192)

     

    Notes:

    Support still printing at 177 setpoint
    Ext B Sitting/Set at 182/182 when not printing
    Sets new temp (195), immediate prints
    
    Sets temp to 177, keeps printing.
    Switches set temps, immediately prints on unheated ExtA

     

    The interesting bit is the temperature is proactively set to (what I assume is) 15 degrees below "Standby".

     

    I really like the idea of a "Standby" temp as well as a "start printing at" temp. But as best I can tell I can't get to those. What I CAN say is that whatever is going on, I see a lot of extruder-feeding happening when the nozzle temperature is well below extrusion temperature.

     

    Most of the failed Purge Towers and Ooze Shields happen when they are printed at the Standby temperature instead of at the Print temperature. If the structures were more robust, it would likely be ok. But given they aren't, waiting for the right temps (AT the tower, not AT the part!!!!) would go a long way.

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding
    Gcode Line#	Command	Extduer	Temp
    11	M109	A	S210
    12	M109	B	S189
    3044	M109	B	S195
    4671	M109	A	S195
    4672	M104	B	S182
    4678	M104	A	S205
    5025	M104	A	S190
    6071	M109	B	S182
    6072	M104	A	S195
    6077	M104	B	S192
    6527	M104	B	S177
    7021	M109	A	S195
    7022	M104	B	S182
    8168	M109	B	S182
    9121	M109	A	S195
    10263	M109	B	S182
    10264	M104	A	S195
    10269	M104	B	S192
    10839	M104	B	S177
    11274	M109	A	S195
    11275	M104	B	S182
    11280	M104	A	S205
    11594	M104	A	S190
    12566	M109	B	S182
    12567	M104	A	S195
    12572	M104	B	S192
    13260	M104	B	S177
    13675	M109	A	S195
    13676	M104	B	S182
    13681	M104	A	S205
    13893	M104	A	S190
    14867	M109	B	S182
    14868	M104	A	S195
    14873	M104	B	S192
    15371	M104	B	S177
    15792	M109	A	S195
    15793	M104	B	S182
    15797	M104	A	S205
    15975	M104	A	S190
    16851	M109	B	S182
    16852	M104	A	S195
    16861	M104	B	S192
    17618	M104	B	S177
    18013	M109	A	S195
    18014	M104	B	S182
    18023	M104	A	S205
    18201	M104	A	S190
    18823	M109	B	S182
    18824	M104	A	S195
    18833	M104	B	S192
    19605	M104	B	S177
    19895	M109	A	S195
    19896	M104	B	S182
    19906	M104	A	S205
    

    I pulled all the temperature change lines from my g-code, which repeats:

    11280	M104	A	S205
    11594	M104	A	S190
    12566	M109	B	S182
    12567	M104	A	S195
    12572	M104	B	S192
    13260	M104	B	S177
    13675	M109	A	S195
    13676	M104	B	S182
    

    A Print Temp

    A (Print-15)

    B Standby

    A Standby

    B Print Temp

    B (Standby - 15)

    A Standby Temp

    B Standby Temp

     

    At minimum I see a difference, ExtA uses Print-15, ExtB uses Standby-15

     

    I'm going to generate some gcode with less-ambiguous temperatures and repeat this exercise. 

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Yeah, there seems to be a bit of disparity between the wording of the interface and the actual code created. That can present frustrating examples of miscommunications between people such as yourself (Can pinpoint code) and myself (Goes by interface at this time) that can create unneeded agita.

     

    But, I am going to take your word for it and hope someone fromm Team UM's coding department can clarify what is going on.

     

    Also, I just stopped using the priming tower just because it is a time suck and really wastes materials

     

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    Posted (edited) · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding
    Gcode Line#	Command	Extduer	Temp
    11	M109	A	S210
    12	M109	B	S189
    3044	M109	B	S195
    4671	M109	A	S195
    4672	M104	B	S182
    4678	M104	A	S205
    5025	M104	A	S190
    6071	M109	B	S182
    6072	M104	A	S195
    6077	M104	B	S192
    6527	M104	B	S177
    7021	M109	A	S195
    7022	M104	B	S182
    8168	M109	B	S182
    9121	M109	A	S195
    10263	M109	B	S182
    10264	M104	A	S195
    10269	M104	B	S192
    10839	M104	B	S177
    11274	M109	A	S195
    11275	M104	B	S182
    11280	M104	A	S205
    11594	M104	A	S190
    12566	M109	B	S182
    12567	M104	A	S195
    12572	M104	B	S192
    13260	M104	B	S177
    13675	M109	A	S195
    13676	M104	B	S182
    13681	M104	A	S205
    13893	M104	A	S190
    14867	M109	B	S182
    14868	M104	A	S195
    14873	M104	B	S192
    15371	M104	B	S177
    15792	M109	A	S195
    15793	M104	B	S182
    15797	M104	A	S205
    15975	M104	A	S190
    16851	M109	B	S182
    16852	M104	A	S195
    16861	M104	B	S192
    17618	M104	B	S177
    18013	M109	A	S195
    18014	M104	B	S182
    18023	M104	A	S205
    18201	M104	A	S190
    18823	M109	B	S182
    18824	M104	A	S195
    18833	M104	B	S192
    19605	M104	B	S177
    19895	M109	A	S195
    19896	M104	B	S182
    19906	M104	A	S205
    

    I pulled all the temperature change lines from my g-code, which repeats:

    11280	M104	A	S205
    11594	M104	A	S190
    12566	M109	B	S182
    12567	M104	A	S195
    12572	M104	B	S192
    13260	M104	B	S177
    13675	M109	A	S195
    13676	M104	B	S182
    

    A Print Temp

    A (Print-15)

    B Standby

    A Standby

    B Print Temp

    B (Standby - 15)

    A Standby Temp

    B Standby Temp

     

    At minimum I see a difference, ExtA uses Print-15, ExtB uses Standby-15

     

    I'm going to generate some gcode with less-ambiguous temperatures and repeat this exercise. 

    --------------------------

     

    Trying again: When I use extereme values (temps of 300+) to establish enough seperation between the values to tell "Print Extruder A - 15" apart from "Standby Extruder B + 10", the software changes the values (I think my "350" became "150" in g-code??.

     

    With the following settings:
     

    Extruder Material Material Print Material Standby Profile Print Profile First Layer Profile Standby
    A My PLA 205 193 206 208 196
    B My PVA 192 185 191 194 188

     

    21 layers with PVA, 80 layers overall

     

    I get:

    Temp Times Ext State Offset
    165 16 B Standby -20
    175 10 B Standby -10
    181 10 A Standby -10
    188 4      
    190 11      
    194 2      
    195 22      
    196 6      
    205 11      
    208 2    

     

     

    The issue is I just can't tell what's going on. I know it prints a LOT when the temps are set lower than ANY temperature I set anywhere in the program, and I know I get underextrusion from such. I can't tell (ExtA <Material Setting: Print Temp> - 10) apart from (ExtB <Material Setting: Standby Temp> + 10), by the time I have to consider offsets of +/- 20, and to get no overlap, and not hit temps too low (<160?) or too high (>250), I quickly run out of testing options. With some support I'd be happy to keep testing but I just feel I don't have enough to work with.

     

    I'm a LONG time into trying to figure out what is going on, and would love some instructions on how the program works.

     

    Edited by AbeFM
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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    This gets worse the longer I look at it.

     

    I would be VERY happy to help someone knowledgeable debug this, but I feel I don't understand what it is even trying to do well enough.

     

    Most of the variables seem to have hidden constraints, changes aren't always respected, and I don't even know what the behavior SHOULD be, so it's really hard to tell if it is doing what it should.

     

    It SEEMS like there are settings (in the printer profile?) which are hidden, and cover things like temperature offsets, time to turn the extruder temperature down preemptively by. These settings are likely great on an UM, but not cutting it for my E3D based equipment.

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Wow.

     

    image.thumb.png.b3d811282574129af5da9095f1689db5.png

     

     

    I guess all those settings are there! Hidden.

     

    I may well be in a LOT better shape than I thought.

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Oh!!! I thought you had those unhidden. My first action is to unhide everything. And when a new version comes out, I go back and unhide everything again. I am sorry I did not catch that. It would have made things much easier for you.

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    I'm wondering if it was a case of not having unhidden the options at the same time as having a definition which supported dual extruders.

     

    I'm still having printing issues, but at least they make sense now. Thanks!!!!!!

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    I to have been struggling with the tower also and it breaking off part way up. It seems like such a waste of material and time to increase the size and wall thickness to keep the tower from breaking apart.

     

    kmanstudios I have seen you post a couple times that you do not use the tower.  Could you give us a couple hints how you do this. When I lower the temp the nozzle sometime freezes and the retracts do not seem enough.. I know i am missing something in set up or settings. Thanks in advance

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    Posted (edited) · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Lemme see how I can put this and see if it makes sense to you:

    1. When I get finished with a print, I do sometimes have to knock a few stringy things off with my thumbnail or every once in a while a sharp x-acto
    2. I get a bit of stringing on the PVA, but I got that with the priming tower anyway
    3. As long as the stringiness is not going inside the model, I am not worried
    4. I use pretty much defauolt settings for things like PLA, PVA, TPLA. PETG can get a bit stringy and takes a bit of getting used to setting

    That is my basic operation right there. I just got tired of the waste and added time of the priming tower. Every once in a blue moon, I may use an ooze shield, but honestly, I cannot recall the last time I did so.

     

    This is my latest print with no priming tower on the UM3E and after removing the PVA. I did have to remove a few PLA strings.

    TinyOneOnUM3E.thumb.jpg.81c1523cd8e02e592c694498e42a231f.jpg

    Front.thumb.jpg.636884e6ab99dbce369fbdb227e28b2d.jpg

     

    Edit:

    Oh yeah, those are a US quarter and a 2 Euro coin for size relationship. So, thems some kinda teeny fingers and toes.

    Edited by kmanstudios
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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Thanks Kman. Are you using the standard .4 nozzle? Just to confirm  and the standard ultimaker setting that come in Cura?

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Yes, 0,4 nozzle and standard Cura settings for most filaments, even if not UM materials. Like the one above was made using Polyalchemy Elixr filament.

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    I have been experimenting with not using the tower and using Cura's suggested settings. There seems to be a balance of temperature at the start and end of a print session before it switches to the other print core, this determines how much leaks out when the other head is printing. Is this your experience? In addition the length and speed of retraction also seems to make a difference and is  different for PVA and PLA. Do you ever modify them?

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    Posted · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Not really. I agree with the balances they have worked out. The PVA is hard to tell because it is so absorbant, it can change characteristics in a print's duration and that will affect the stringiness. But for the most part, I find the settings pretty good for most colors and materials for the ones they have included.

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    Posted (edited) · Soluble Supports: Tower Layer Bonding

    Your printer has the fancy moving nozzles, right? I don't know when UM started doing that (UM3?)

     

    The issue I have is the PVA "strings" end up being "PVA-row-of-holes-in-your-part" once you wash it.

     

    Awesome print, BTW

    Edited by AbeFM
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