UMS5 saying there is no more material / triggering the flow sensor when speed / layer thickness is too high

[Dadkitess 21]

Hello there,

 

It's quite a basic one but I'll admit I will take any advice or feedback about it. I'm having recently too much of "No more material in XX spool" while there is still, because of the triggering of the flow sensor.

 

Our UMS5 is quite picky when it comes to high-flow prints. I know, I know, Ultimaker are almost advertised as slow printers "to guarantee best results" and every topic about their printers will at a moment or another mention something like "it likes to print at 20-30 mm/s".

 

It's really way too slow by the today standards and it was way too slow by the 5 years-ago standards as well, especially for a fully enclosed expensive printer, and I'm totally okay to trade off some quality for speed when I consider that the contours, the continuous lines, are well doable at higher speed (think of a 100mm diameter wide tube, it can print past 200mm/s on any printer or so, there is not difficulty, not inertia problem, etc.) like about 50-60mm/s for internal contours for instance. So that I can divide the whole print time by half, that's it.

 

Since I want to reduce Print Time, I also set 0.3mm layer thickness, obviously !... Which lead to "high speed" (cough) and thick layers, or even, I dare, 0.5mm layer width 😮 ! Which, individually, is perfectly fine of course (perfectly might be a superlative) but altogether represent some kind of High Flow. I'm using a 0.4mm AA print core, don't have the 0.8mm by now, I know it would suit this case but I want to be able to deal with 0.4mm that are 98% of what we use and should be perfectly doable.

 

So, 0.3mm thickness, 0.5mm width, 60mm/s = 9mm^3/s, I'll round at 10mm^3/s.

 

I can't find it back but some day ago, I read that the max would be 25mm^3/s for the UMS5. My research was with AA 0.4 printcore but can't say for sure that this max was not for 0.8. But I would say that this is a "normal" value considering the ability of other brands to print way way way faster than this.

 

I've raised the print temperature to help a little bit, but it did not solve the issue. I've slow down the print using the Live parameters when printing, and It worked. So yeah, I really have the feeling that Flow Rate is the issue here... Is it simply OK, like, this printer can't print at high flow rate, maxing at about 6-7mm^3/s maybe and I will deal with it ? Would a 0.8mm PrintCore definitely help at reaching better max flow rate by reducing the constraints and pressure ? 

 

I've especially had this issue with the official Ultimaker PETG (grey) that I'm currently experimenting, but also vaaaaaaaaaastly with PVA (but PVA, well, uh ? It just jams everywhen it can ^^) and also had it very rarely with T-PLA (Black) with the same situation of "high" speed, 0.3mm layer thickness. I'll admit that for the last print with the PETG, I did not check and clean the nozzle with the atomic procedure, maybe it's required, it's been some time I would say. But the question remains, do we know about a concrete maximum flow rate for our beloved AA 0.4mm print core ?

 

Your ideas about it ?

Edited March 27, 2024 by Dadkitess

[Dustin 193]

UltiMaker Cura has "Extra Fast" intent profiles the help with this some.
But its not advised to try pushing more beyond that.. the profiles are already pushing the limits of the thermal capacity in the print core.

[Dadkitess 21]

Thanks for your answer. You speak about the "limits of the thermal capacity in the Print Core" : I don't get it. It is to say that the printcore don't have the power (hence, the time) to fuse the filament when the flow rate is too fast ?

 

If so, how could it achieve some 285°C PC print ? I guess it's 300°C capable to give some margin for that high-temps material that I've print successfully by the past. Of course, it was not a speedy profile neither an high flow rate but I guess that 235°C at high flow rate equal a 285°C sustained low flow rate with, again, some margin so that the printer won't be too inclined to stop at any occasion ?

 

Does a 0.8mm Print Core has a higher max flow rate ? Like, if's thermal related, does it have a more powerful heater ? Because at 0.8mm, I would print, well, 0.8mm width and possibly 0.35 or 0.4mm layer height and even at 30mm/s it would reach just short of 10mm^3/s which seems to be the problematic threshold 😕 There is no point to print even slower to compensate : anyone printing with a large 0.8mm print core, does it do speed up a very long print which won't matter much of the coarse quality. This is all about flow rate.

 

Please, tell me that UMS5 are not bound to below 8mm^3/s flow rate ?... I would prefer to read that I'm missing something and / or need some new printcore / cleaning.

[Dustin 193]

You will need to contact UltiMaker Support to get a more detailed answer.
UltiMaker does not provide direct support via the community.

I was simply sharing what information I am aware of.
But simplified answer.. 280c at low speeds can be less thermal demanding than a print at 235c at higher speeds.
Its the max potential heat that can be produced by the hotend.

The UltiMaker S series is not a high speed printing platform.
So your trying to make the machine do something it was never designed to do in the first place.
S5 was released in 2018
The print core design was released with the UM3 in 2016

[Dadkitess 21]

Well, I was printing at 100-140 mm/s 0.25mm layer height with a Prusa i3 back in 2016-18, actually, which is really not in the same price range, nor the same construction, etc. Sooo yeah, while I "can" admit that the two printcore head can induce low print speed to avoid quality issues because of inertia (even if, huh, ghosting remains even at 20mm/s xD), this has nothing to deal with thermal performance, which should at least be on par with the contemporary printers, indeed. Again, it's a 5000+€ machine, not known to print fast for some valid and some less valid reasons, but I would have guess that the heater would not be the limit.

Maybe it's not, though, I'll have to try some tests with low temp material to see if it's still problematic or not.

 

I don't see what would be the benefit from 0.8mm if the max flow rate remains the same so I guess it's improved.

[Dustin 193]

🤷‍♂️ the heater block in the Print core is significantly smaller than the heater block on a Prusa.
Additionally the heater rod in a Print core is considerably smaller than a heater rod in a Prusa.

I dont know what else to tell you.

[Dadkitess 21]

Yeah, I see, I can understand that, it is capped by its PrintCore design. Well, it's quite "bad" news but it is information nonetheless and this is what I came for, feedback about what could be wrong, so that I do not miss a parameter or something that I can actually improve. It just appears that, definitely, UMS5 is made to print low speed, low flow rate, and that's it.

 

The question remain about the 0.8mm haha. Being able to print twice as fast in 0.3mm height and 0.4 width, is equivalent to normal speed in 0.3mm height and 0.8 width, flow rate wise, and then you won't get any advantage. Lower speed would mean a bit less jittery, ghosting, but 0.8mm width means way less X/Y precision for "small" features. There is not net print speed advantage, which is the main objective of large print core. I don't get it.