1 hour ago, nallath said:The model is likely non-manifold. It's not a guarantee that the model will fail (as you've already found).
These areas can be very small, making it hard to see them.
A meaningful explanation of errors is a must for any decent programmer. Just to say: There is a error and no other indication is in my eyes a sloppiness!
I think you missed the last part:
3 hours ago, nallath said:These areas can be very small, making it hard to see them.
So the indication is there, but could be very small, so you have to zoom in and search for the red area.
15 minutes ago, Smithy said:I think you missed the last part:
So the indication is there, but could be very small, so you have to zoom in and search for the red area.
I zoomed in and rotated to all faces and there is no marker to be seen. This is the problem I meant!
The programmers should make a red circle around or an arrow to the point - enough great to see what and where some error is located! This error occurs mostly with ready parts (stl) from thingiverse and other sources. But I had it too with own constructions.
Hello @Lupus52. I have not yet had a part that Cura indicated had a problem which did not have a problem. Usually I open the model file in MS 3D Builder for the repair. I have used on-line repair services successfully as well.
The errors can be very small. A seam may be open by .001mm which would be exceedingly difficult to display on the monitor. Cura is a very good slicer. It is not a CAD program, or STL repair program, or assembly modeler, etc. I think the fact that it knows there may be a problem is the big thing. Being able to point directly at a surface and say "this one is backward" or to a seam and say "This one is open" might be interesting, I just don't think it would be useful. I still have to open it in another piece of software to fix it. The repair is made without me having to tell the software where the issues are. It just fixes them if it can.
Many words - but no solution to the problem! The problem is, that Cura does not mark the errors in a normal and useable way! If a marker is so small that I can't see it, the marker is senseless! Where is the problem to show a large enough red circle or arrow to the place with the error? And to explain in normals words like "Too much distance between to faces" - and the marker is at this place. I don't want to use external programs to find errorplaces! This is a work for Cura when it detects an error!
Until now, I ignored all such errors because the job always was done without problems. But it is annoying when a program tells "Error" and does not tell what and why. It is like stupid Windows-errors. "An error occured!" - And you search and search .....
Hello, you can check this help from Cura support: https://support.ultimaker.com/hc/en-us/articles/360014055959-Why-am-I-getting-Your-model-has-missing-or-extraneous-surfaces-popups-in-Ultimaker-Cura-
Try to zoom and rotate around the model to find the nonmanifold part or you can use other software to fix the nonmanifold part automatically if you couldn't find it.
39 minutes ago, 3dsage said:Hello, you can check this help from Cura support: https://support.ultimaker.com/hc/en-us/articles/360014055959-Why-am-I-getting-Your-model-has-missing-or-extraneous-surfaces-popups-in-Ultimaker-Cura-
Try to zoom and rotate around the model to find the nonmanifold part or you can use other software to fix the nonmanifold part automatically if you couldn't find it.
And another helpless post! What do you think, how often I have zoomed and turned in all directions?
I don’t want to use other software! It is Cura's turn to show an error in usable form!
"...It is Cura's turn to show an error in usable form!"
I'm trying to understand. One thing (among many) that I don't understand is what would be a "useable form". In the screenshot below we see that MS 3D Builder has found an error in the Benchy. It is indicating "errors" by showing a red square around the base of the model. There is no more specific indicator than that. It successfully repaired whatever errors it found. (I think it's a little funny because I originally altered the model in MS 3D Builder and it didn't show any errors at the time.)
I uploaded the same file to https://formware.co/OnlineStlRepair. It also repaired the model and provided this report:
-> Analyzed your file:
--> 0 Naked edges (?)
--> 0 Planar holes (?)
--> 0 Non-planar holes (?)
--> 38 Non-manifold edges (?)
--> 41 Inverted faces (?)
--> 342 Degenerate faces (?)
--> 38 Duplicate faces (?)
--> 0 Disjoint shells (?)
-> Repairing: 100.00%
----- Repair completed in 220617ms ------
-> Vertex count changed from 131008 to 126312 (-4696)
-> Triangle count changed from 262516 to 253830 (-8686)
This indicates there were 459 errors in the model. I had guessed that the errors are around where I added "Greg" to the transom and it didn't mesh with "#3D Benchy" very well. What would I do differently if it did have 459 indicators showing the problems? (BTW my personal record for the number of errors in a model posted here is 35,000.)
Here is the same file opened in MeshMixer. I think it's safe to assume that the red lines are where there are errors. MeshMixer is built for this sort of thing. I would not use it to slice the model...it's not what it's good at. It also successfully repaired the model.
I'll leave this now, but in closing I have this poor analogy:
I'm a bit of a motorhead and I have a lot of tools in my toolbox. I pick the tool for a specific job based on the requirements of that job. As an example - I own 12 hammers. I would not use a 3lb mallet to put in a carpet tack, and I would not use a tack hammer to pound a bearing out of a wheel even if the tack hammer was already in my hand. I would (hopefully) pick the right tool for the job.
I have always found it "useable" that Cura points out that a model needs repair. There are other tools that are a lot better at doing those repairs.
Among the many things that I don't understand is what a "degenerate face" is. I really don't care as long as it gets fixed.
I don't want to dance in a circle! Therefore, I give up with this point.
Sorry for reactivating this post but I would like to ask some questions regarding this as well.
First, I am very new to working with 3D models and english is not ma native language, so please bear with me if I don´t understand something the first time or my questions seems stupid.
Now for my Questions:
I created a kinda simple Object which had some Error I did not understand but 3DBuilder and the online repair both seemed to have worked. In the Screenshot is my "clean" model on the right and the new "fixed" model on the left.
1) Why did those programs add so many "useless" lines into my model?
2) How am I supposed to work with this new model when i have to modify dozens of lines/planes for just a simple change?
Edit: OK, I guess most of this is to create triangles.
But why does a rectangle, which only has straight lines need this
instead of this?
When you say "...Work with this model..." what exactly do you mean?
Each feature of any object will create line segments. The length of the segments of features that aren't straight is controlled by the resolution setting of the "Model-to-STL" utility that you use to change something like a 3D CAD model into an STL model. That utility should connect all those line ends into triangles (facets) in the STL file.
In the image below (MS 3D Builder) you can see that a simple cube has 2 triangles for each face. Since each pair of triangles is planar, you won't see any faceting when you slice this.
The cylinder has dense triangles because the top and bottom "circles" have been broken into short line segments. Each line segment on the top circle is connected with the end of a line segment on the bottom circle. The result is a lot of triangles that comprise the wall of the cylinder and pairs of triangles are planar because the top and bottom "circles" are the same size. If it was a cone then none of the wall triangles would be planar.
There are no true circles or curves in 3D printing. The math doesn't allow it. I think it's Pythagoras' fault.
So there are no "useless" lines in your model, just the lines needed to make a bazillion triangles. "Bazillion" is a technical term and is a number tied to the resolution setting of the STL export utility.
Here I have used the "Simplify" tool on the cylinder to reduce the density of the triangles. You can see that this would print poorly because the top and bottom circles are obviously made up of line segments. In this case it's a "pentadecagon" (I had to look that one up) rather than a cylinder even though it's the same object - just altered a bit.
I just saw that second image with the faceted surface above a rectangular surface. There are a lot of facets on the top one because the end points of the different line segments lie on different planes. The bottom one must have been a plane.
Edited by GregValiantThank you very much for your answers.
I ment that its hard to modify those fixed models if I need to change something. But you made me realised that my workflow seems to be the Problem. I create and edit the model in Sketchup 3D (which id the only 3D Software I am used to right now), save it as an STL and edit it as needed. So when I wanted to edit the fixed stl files with all those triangles it was like a nightmare. It seems like I should have a separate 3D Model (non STL) which I edit and only export an STL File when I want to feed it to Cura.
Regarding those two images at the bottom, the simple one (2 faces) is the one STL Model I had created, while the one with dozens of faces is the one MS 3D Builder made out of it while fixing.
"It seems like I should have a separate 3D Model (non STL) which I edit and only export an STL File when I want to feed it to Cura."
Exactly correct. It's much easier to alter a model in CAD.
Sketchup is notorious for putting in faces that are reversed. I think if you look closely at your object in SketchUp (or Blender) you can see when adjoining faces are different colors. That is usually an indicator that one of them has it's outside facing inside. That will result in an error in Cura that Cura cannot resolve. I believe you can flip a surface in Sketchup so it faces the correct way. I don't know SketchUp so I'm unsure of that.
"...the one with dozens of faces is the one MS 3D Builder made out of it while fixing."
The surface must not have been flat.
I don't know what resolution Cura or SketchUp work to. I do know that internally, AutoCad works to 12 decimal places and displays objects to 8 decimal places. If the ends of those lines are out of whack in the Z at the 8th decimal place then the surface wasn't planar and that would result in what you got there.
Another indicator of a non-planar surface in that image is that: The two end vertical lines are each comprised of a single line, the first vertical stripe in from each end is comprised of 3 lines, and the middle vertical stripe is comprised of two lines.
Last thing.
Here are two models. The counterbore in the right model was added in CAD because it was easier that way. The Embossed letters on the left model were added in MS 3D Builder because it was easier that way.
Ya gotta use the right tool for the job.
Thank you very much!
I will definitely have a deeper look into better ways / software to do the tings I need!
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nallath 1,104
The model is likely non-manifold. It's not a guarantee that the model will fail (as you've already found).
These areas can be very small, making it hard to see them.
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