Solution for being unable to buy un-warped garolite to print nylon on

[lawrencejohnston 0]

Garolite LE is a great surface for printing nylon on, but in practice it's hard to buy sheets of a thickness appropriate for printing (e.g. 1/4") that are not hopelessly warped. The 1/4" sheet I order from McMaster Carr was warped at least 1/16" in two directions (dome-shaped).

After trying a couple alternate surfaces and not being entirely happy with any of them I came up with a solution for printing on garolite that I've been printing on for several months and am extremely happy with.

What I did was get a 3/8" sheet of glass cut to the size of my bed, a 1/32" sheet of garolite from McMaster cut to the same size, and some sheet adhesive (I used Killer Humgo Adhesive because I got a 3-sheet pack for cheap) to glue them together.

The 1/32" sheet of garolite is flexible enough that it doesn't matter if it comes warped, and once it's glued to the sheet of glass it has a very consistent thickness. The thickness of my glass-garolite sandwich is consistent to 0.01 mm or so.

I use binder clips to affix to to the bed and a spacer (the same thickness as the glass-garolite combo) on top of the z-stop trigger to offset the additional thickness.

 

Even buying the glass and adhesive the the total cost was about the same amount as buying 1/4" garolite to begin with.

 

[calinb 11]

I pretty much came to the same setup. I bonded my thin Garolite sheet to a 1/4" thick sheet of precision Mic6 aluminum plate using contact cement. Then, to get it really flat, I machined it. It can be re-machined, as necessary, to freshen the build surface when it gets too potmarked and chipped under tough to remove sections of parts.

[malcolmthemole 0]

garolite is a phenol formaldehyde resin impregnated into layer of fabric (cotton or linen) or layers of paper... garolite LE being a linen based version.

in the UK, australia, south africa and most of europe the equivalent product to LE is Tufnol Whale.... tufnol being the brand name of cotton / linen / paper versions.... paxolin being a paper only brand.... all originate in the victorian era.

the only real problem(s) are that, by specification, these products are NOT uniform in thickness and NOT specified as flat.... in fact I include the official "flatness" specifications

The below table is the maximum deviation from flat over a distance of 1000mm using a straight edge.

Sheet Thickness Variation

1.6mm to 3mm up to 18mm

3mm to 6mm up to 10mm

6mm to 8mm up to 8mm

over 8mm up to 6mm

this describes a sheet that naturally domes in the center.... thickness is "usually" fairly precise.

I like the idea of glueing the sheet to glass (glass is a phenomenal engineering material) and aluminium is a good idea....... thin composite sheet and thick very rigid sheet seems great.

composites machine easily and it is easy to "flat" the sheet to improve flatness and adhesion........ however, nylon extrudes best on a high temperature bed and preferably a hot enclosure... and hot phenol formaldehyde is an unpleasant smell (it improves after many uses) and it releases formaldehyde from the resin... formaldehyde is a nasty poison so well ventilate it.

I speak (of formaldehyde) from experience as I have bee seriously ill from phenol and formaldehyde poisoning for 30yrs... my equipment is in a fully enclosed polycarbonate case with recirculating fan passing through a carbon filter to remove the poisons (one day I'll post it on here)... it seems to work well

[hussainsail2002 3]

Hi,

 

I am from India,

 

We do not have the brand garolite here and hence would like to know if there are any alternate materials that can be used.

 

I am trying to use Fr-4 glass epoxy sheets. These are layers of glass fibers compressed with resin.

 

any suggestions would be useful

 

Edit 1:

 

The nylon simple peels of the glass epoxy sheet within a few minutes, it simply is unable to stick to the epoxy sheet.

Edited May 27, 2019 by hussainsail2002

[malcolmthemole 0]

last time I needed it in india it was by the british name "Tufnol"

 

Tufnol/ garolite is a phenyl resin bonded paper or cotton and used extensively (in the past) in radio and tv manufacture (before pcb became common)  it is still used for valve equipment and modifications to electronics.

 

Also the paper bonded version can be found a "paxolin"

[calinb 11]

On 5/27/2019 at 2:25 AM, hussainsail2002 said:

 

I've been printing nylon since the trimmer line days (when it was the only nylon media available). Accordingly, I've tried many substrates for printing nylon. In the past, I used contact cement to bond Garolite to a precision Mic6 aluminium plate, but now I just use Gecko EZ-Stick hot on window glass. It works just as well and is easier to replace: https://www.geckotek.co/collections/ez-stik-hot

On the other hand, the only perfect bed adhesion that I've found for large and dense nylon prints is Gorilla Glue one-part urethane (the original dark honey-colored stuff) adhesive. It only lasts for a single print though and it's a pain to use. You have to spread it as thin as possible onto a glass build plate with a putty knife and let it dry first. The bonds between the interfaces can be stronger than the glass however. You need some pretty thin pry devices (start with a razor blade on a holder and then transition to a thin putty knife) to remove a part. Sometimes you'll end up pulling up pockets of glass and then that side of the glass will be ruined in that location, due to the craters. After removing the part, you can scrape the Gorilla Glue from the glass with a razor blade scraper. Fortunately the newer nylon formulations tend to offer better adhesion to more conventional build surfaces than trimmer line or the old Taulman 618 too!

Edited June 5, 2019 by calinb

[malcolmthemole 0]

its NOT the fibres its made from that allows the print to stick..... cotton, paper, glass makes no difference....... its the phenol formaldehyde resin that it sticks to

 

the only reason that garolyte and tufnol / paxolin is better on a cloth (cotton) substrate is that it is more durable... the paper bonded types crack and break when handled.

 

Garolyte was on ebay india this afternoon   in.ebay.com

[hussainsail2002 3]

Thanks @malcolmthemole !. Will try getting "tufnol" seems to be more commonly available.

 

Also wanted to know if Bakelite and Hylam are suitable,since they are made of Phenolic-resins as well 

 

Thanks again.

 

Hussain.

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by hussainsail2002

[hussainsail2002 3]

@malcolmthemole 

 

Hi,

 

I managed to get my hands on Tufnol and tried printing nylon on it,

 

It managed to print the first layer before getting completely warped and dislocate from the bed surface.

Would like to ask you if there is any other method of getting nylon to attach.

 

The nylon I used had absorbed quite a lot of moisture and kept making a fizzing sound while being extruded, does this reduce the adhesive ability of Tufnol ?? 

 

Regards,

Hussain.

[P3D 46]

2 hours ago, hussainsail2002 said:

@malcolmthemole 

 

Hi,

 

I managed to get my hands on Tufnol and tried printing nylon on it,

 

It managed to print the first layer before getting completely warped and dislocate from the bed surface.

Would like to ask you if there is any other method of getting nylon to attach.

 

The nylon I used had absorbed quite a lot of moisture and kept making a fizzing sound while being extruded, does this reduce the adhesive ability of Tufnol ?? 

 

Regards,

Hussain.

 

DRY your Nylon. Your prints won't get out decent anyway if the Nylon is wet, at least in my experience. I have no experience with Tufnol, unfortunately, but I think the Markforged Mark One had a Tufnol bed, and MarkForged always recommended using glue stick (Elmer's washable glue is one good option in my experience).

Edited June 5, 2019 by P3D

[calinb 11]

You can dry your nylon with a 5 gal. bucket (or other container) and light bulb:

http://taulman3d.com/drying-materials.html

 

[malcolmthemole 0]

as calinb infers.... ALL filament should be DRY... I mean CHEMICALLY DRY.... i.e no moisture AT ALL.

 

It makes matter worse as nylon is hygroscopic and will absorb atmospheric moisture VERY quickly....... after printing it makes colouring nylon with acid dyes really easy and permanent.

 

I kepp ALL my filament in a "scuba" box (a brand of box from USA that seals TOTALLY water and airtight... something that is very rare... ans have a kilo of silica gel in the bottom to keep it dry.

 

Initially I dry filament UNWOUND from its spool in an oven at 120c or in short bursts of a microwave oven... or as CalinB suggests (just make sure its unspooled and the bulb is not too close and never touching.

 

I use a TAZ6 printer fully enclosed with a heated bed (temperatures etc available from filament supplier as they can vary) and both nylon 6 or 12 and nylonX (with carbon fibre) print easily.

 

I'm glad you managed to find the phenyl formaldehyde sheet ok (garolite or tufnol)

 

keep trying.... take All precautions you can (especially moisture) and you WILL succeed.

[hussainsail2002 3]

Thanks a lot for your feedback,

 

 

I live in an extremely humid city, the brand new roll of filament absorbed moisture within few minutes after opening it.

 

I think I will buy the  Nylon bridge filament from taulman 3D as its supposed to have moisture resistance and good bed adhesion.

 

Regards,

Hussain

[malcolmthemole 0]

I suspect you're somewhere like mumbai (my in-laws are in chenai) and I know the humidity problems from servicing light and film equipment in "bollywood"

 

You will still have problems with most filaments, including bridge, that can be hygroscopic.... many of us use petg instead, although it still needs drying first.

 

If I were you... and I can only say what I would do personally.... and talking of ANY filament inc nylon and bridge....

 

Firstly dry your filament (use ANY method) I prefer unwinding it and drying in an oven for an extended period at 120~130c NO WARMER.

 

Then put filament into a large bucket with a good amount of silica gel (it needs drying, as well, preferably in the oven with the filament) when it changes to "dry" colour your filament etc is dry.

 

drill a hole in the buckets lid and fit a "bowden connector" (see ooznest or such)

 

insert a length of PTFE tubing, I suggest 4mm bore, through the bucket lid Bowden connector and a similar connector on the filament extruder

 

thread your filament through the PTFE tubing

 

Seal the lid on the bucket with tape.... wide pvc or parcel tape... forming an air tight seal (filament and silica gel is IN the bucket)

 

filament is now through PTFE and BOTH Bowden connectors forming and air tight, sealed pathway from bucket to extractor.

 

IF you thoroughly dried the filament first... then fed it as above, you should expect minimal problems.... when finished printing, you can simply squash the PTFE tube cosed with a bulldog or Hoffman clip and it should then be able to keep as long as required until next printing without further problems

 

malcolm

[calinb 11]

I simply thread my filament out one of the bucket holes to the feeder. I only leave the length of filament out of the bucket when printing and it doesn't absorb moisture fast enough to make a describable when printing, even in the most humid weather I've ever experienced in the Pacific NW of the USA. When not printing with my filament, I rotate the filament spool(s) in the bucket at least daily and simply leave the light on (from 40 W to 100 W, depending on the ambient humidity of the weather (true watts--not the  "equivalent" light output ratings on the low power bulbs most often required to be sold by law in the USA). It's too bad the "Edison" light bulbs are no longer available, because they made inexpensive electric heaters (always 100% efficient resistive electrical heat) and produced "free light"! 😉

 

You could also try using rice in the bottom of the bucket as an alternative to silica gel. It will absorb water and improve the efficiency of the light bulb drier.

[malcolmthemole 0]

I just worry that in the steamy moist atmosphere of the indian subcontinent it is advisable to take maximum precautions.

 

years back I had similar problems with the extreme humidity and electronic components....

 

doing some precautions and doing them to the max is only a little bit more effort... and why take chances.

 

I know about rice as a dessicant but in this case I feel it wiser to go with the heavy hitters

[hussainsail2002 3]

Thanks a lot for your suggestions 

 

@malcolmthemole I live in chennai as well !! Relative humidity reaches as high as 70% at times.

Will try drying my filament and starting another print.

 

I also noticed another thing that my sheet of tufnol was not flat , I had clipped it to the edges and it kind of had an unusual bend in few places, I plan to cut it into a smaller piece and use double side adhesive tape and stick it to a glass plate. 

 

Does adding PVA glue stick to the tufnol help in adhesion ?

 

Also lastly, I read a few forums that mentioned printing a raft with PETG and then printing nylon over it. I also read a comment on youtube or somewhere that mentions the usage of teraoka tape that nylon sticks to with no problem.

 

I hope in the future printing nylon becomes as easy as PLA, 

 

Regards,

Hussain

[malcolmthemole 0]

my brother-in-law is a jesudason.... theres a lot around there.

 

my experience is not recent but the weather is probably still the same... I was an R&D bloke on lighting and cameras etc in the film industry and we supplied a lot to india, hence my worries over taking as much precaution as you can...

 

malcolm