In the market

[designrtUltimakerS5 0]

Im In the market for a brand new 3D printer- desktop  300 x 300 x 300 mm approximate total print size.  I have been using a very poor Makerbot Rep 2x that seems as if it is nearly impossible to get right. Its been 5 years. Many spoiled prints, frustration and time and money wasted in-between the few good prints SO its time.   Time ( 4 - 5 ) years should have gotten us out of the DIY under the hood woods on these $2000 to $ 6000 dollar 3D filament printers.   From reading through all the Ultimaker community FORUM minutae It sounds like these machines are still not ready for prime time unless you are using 1 super basic material like TPLA and maybe a support material when dual head printing.   ITS a one or two headed GLUE GUN with an XYZ program.  Why is this the impossible dream?  Seriously, .. tape temperature, heated chamber, fans, fans on object, fans on filament, feed, feed speed, bowden, direct, WOW... 5 years and stilll this nonsense? I AM in the market for a new S5 but as a professional designer, I am expecting the 6K to be the answer to my little prayer, not a hassle of brillo, bumps, misprints, detached, warped crap at the end of a deadline filled week.    PLEASE - if I desire to use 3 or 4 materials - most useful for study models like??? PLA ? TPLA? TPE? NYLON? TPU?  hard plastic , flexible plastic and support that washes away so that there is no model makers clean up nightmare- please recommend the most direct way to success... Makerbot actually said the the X in two X was that the machine was experimental- and that the user needed a high degree of tinker understanding between the STL model, the position, the material the temperature the speed, the humidity the angle the position the color and the lid being on or off and thats just with the ONE material ABS that the junk heap was originally meant to spit out - out of the box.  5 years and it never lived up to the simplest expectation.    UM's Heiden said " One of the things we’ve heard from one of the customers running a Design Department was, “look, I’m not paying my people to tweak. I’m not paying my people to have fill printers. I just want to get this done.” Printing, in itself, is not important. The object is important. And that really made us speed up everything around zero hassle. So, the more professional the user, the less willingness they have to accept additional handling errors and so on. It’s not allowed.  So- is that what UM delivers ? NOW ? 

 

[Nicolinux 288]

Hi,

 

I don't understand your post. Are you ranting about the actual situation with your Makerbot and are you already disappointed by the S5 even before working with it? I think nobody here can guarantee a completely hassle free printing experience since 3d printing itself is a very complex process and with the endless combination of model geometry and filament properties you are bound to hit some edge cases - if you look for them.

 

I have experienced the S5 as a stable 3d printer which builds upon the UM architecture and delivers very good prints with little friction. Since you are an experienced 3d printing user (even if your experience seemed to have been pretty painful with your old printer), I would assume that you already know what to expect of a 3d printer and to know about the limitations of that tech.

[designrtUltimakerS5 0]

Thanks for the note nicolinux- not a rant, just a first time opener post from an early adopter- on the last straw of a 2X  ready to plunk down the next $$$$ on a new machine, but which??    I'm  hopeful that we have come pretty far in 5 years and that the UM community could really shed some light on where and how far its come and where it has sat still so that I can get a user centric consensus on the S5.  In NY ( a designer filled city in the USA ya know) there is nowhere to see Ultimaker S5 3D printer units working , succeeding, failing and displayed with all the various add ons that I see on line. If the base S5 is great, then starting out , the adding should not be needed. Are they?  I read plenty of articles  but the hands on - for a hands on guy- is truly missing. the 3D hub ratings are..ehh. The UM forum seems open and  cooperative in fairly assessing some very specific details and I can only hope that the typical clogging, warping and non sticking problems have seriously nearly vanished with the 3-5 basic build materials. Have they on the S5 ?

[Nicolinux 288]

Alright I can understand that you are worried. I am pretty sure that other users will chime in. So just post your specific questions about printing with the S5. What do you intend to print and which are the materials you want to print with and why?

 

 

On thing I can tell you upfront is that I personally don't like to print with PVA. I have a pretty humid environment and even though I store the PVA spool in a dry box, on some prints, PVA tends to fizzle and extrude poorly. But that's only my experience. @kmanstudios for example prints with PVA all the time and has far greater insight into this topic.

Sadly I didn't get to try to print with the "breakaway" material, but I intend to do so in order to replace PVA.

 

Another experience - Nylon prints like a dream and is a very interesting material. Sadly I don't need it often but when I do, I am always happy with the print results.

 

Bed adhesion is not an issue - except for very large ABS prints. But that's due to the nature of the material. There are some other exotic materials around which have trouble sticking to the bed but these are few and well... exotic. In these cases one can use the adhesion sheets. I try to avoid them because they are messy to get off the glass plate, but when I absolutely need the adhesion for a tricky material, they do the job very well.

 

Dual extrusion is painless on the S5 as it is on the UM3. Depending on what you print, you can tweak lots of print settings in Cura. The default profiles are stable and I always use them as a starting point when I am tweaking prints to perfection.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

On 8/28/2018 at 2:55 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

From reading through all the Ultimaker community FORUM minutae It sounds like these machines are still not ready for prime time unless you are using 1 super basic material like TPLA and maybe a support material when dual head printing.

Not sure why you are saying "Not ready for prime time." I am using my machines for professional purposes and my clients are very happy. I do not have issues that would make me say otherwise from 'good experience.'

 

Some people forget that they are reading an example from one environment and it will not always work the same in another environment the same way.

 

Printing is following guidelines and extrapolation. And TPLA may be simple, but things like TPLA were invented, not for a printer, but to solve difficult issues that happen no matter what printer you use. ABS is a pain no matter what printer you use. There are other things other than the basic few everybody is used to material wise.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 2:55 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

ITS a one or two headed GLUE GUN with an XYZ program.  Why is this the impossible dream?  Seriously, .. tape temperature, heated chamber, fans, fans on object, fans on filament, feed, feed speed, bowden, direct, WOW... 5 years and stilll this nonsense?

That would be a grand simplification based on the fact that there are so many brilliant people working on it to solve issues. That is all companies. Not just Ultimaker. If it were easy, then things would be all hunky dory and no forums to answer questions.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 2:55 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

So- is that what UM delivers ? NOW ? 

Nothing is hassle free. Cars have been around for 125 years and they still have issues. Computers for the people, almost 40 years, and they still have issues. There is no silver bullet when you get into complex situations that can have so many variables such as environment, handling, etc. It takes a bit of time to learn a machine. And, I got my first UM3E in January 2017 and it has been running non stop. I do have errors. But that should be expected. But for the most part it is following strict procedures and then you get much closer to a push button success. That is where I am with my UM3E machines as well as my S5. Most issues I have can be traced to user error.....getting in a hurry and cutting corners. Simple things like bad glass cleaning, etc. Not focusing on what "THIS" job needs as they are all different. Or if not, then look at mass manufacturing. But, that is not 3D printing's forte.

 

I get your frustration, but as @Nicolinux said, while I have great success at PVA printing, he does not and understands the environmental considerations. This will affect all printers. Not just UM printers.

 

And, by the way, so many of the printer companies do not have good support and actually will foist everything onto UM because of the open source software people will use. This leads to the idea that UM should support the world of printers when it is not. They do a good job of trying to encompass a lot of people's needs, but cannot do it alone.

 

So, I chose UM to begin with for a few reasons:

1. Not focusing on people's bad attitudes about their experiences, but rather how many are outweighed by positive
2. Open source in not only software, but on hardware compaitibility
3. Forum involvement to help and share successful things and knowledge in general

I get your frustration. I really do. But I am also old enough to remember when a machine equivalent of the UM3 series would have been about 20K - 30K investment with even less reliability and a comparable machine with the S5 would have hit about 50K.

 

So, maybe perspective has helped me with this. It does help seeing other people who got into it too fast and had no mechanical skills whatsoever. And then it was just not pretty.

On 8/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

In NY ( a designer filled city in the USA ya know) there is nowhere to see Ultimaker S5 3D printer units working

That is because you ain't seen them all. I know. I am in NYC and have a working system from day one. AND my studio/living space is horrendous for clutter and mess. But the machines keep popping along.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

If the base S5 is great, then starting out , the adding should not be needed.

Ummjm, what addons are you talking about? My addons are for filament issues, not the printer and that is a printdry system and a polybox for each printer to keep the filaments dry.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

 I read plenty of articles  but the hands on - for a hands on guy- is truly missing

That would be me dude ? And if I am good about anything is sharing knowledge. It is in my DNA.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

I can only hope that the typical clogging, warping and non sticking problems have seriously nearly vanished with the 3-5 basic build materials

That can be more about the filaments and how people treat their materials than anything. It really is not hard. I rarely get any of those issues, but, even if you do not change the oil, no matter how good the car, it will seize up. And, if I do not clean my PVA out periodically, it seizes up. When I was in the Navy, it was called "PMS" for Preventive Maintenance Service." Keep your machine happy and it will keep you happy.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

the 3D hub ratings are..ehh

I find most of those things to be more about how the person has forgotten how long it took them to get any sort of decent results and then trying a new machine and attempt to print with it the same way they printed with their old machine. Driving and automatic is not the same as driving a stick shift....I know, I can drive both.

 

But on more helpful note, now you have met one guy who actually uses his machines for fun and profit as well as the machines you asked about in NYC.

[lrodriguez 32]

On 8/28/2018 at 4:40 PM, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

Thanks for the note nicolinux- not a rant, just a first time opener post from an early adopter- on the last straw of a 2X  ready to plunk down the next $$$$ on a new machine, but which??    I'm  hopeful that we have come pretty far in 5 years and that the UM community could really shed some light on where and how far its come and where it has sat still so that I can get a user centric consensus on the S5.  In NY ( a designer filled city in the USA ya know) there is nowhere to see Ultimaker S5 3D printer units working , succeeding, failing and displayed with all the various add ons that I see on line. If the base S5 is great, then starting out , the adding should not be needed. Are they?  I read plenty of articles  but the hands on - for a hands on guy- is truly missing. the 3D hub ratings are..ehh. The UM forum seems open and  cooperative in fairly assessing some very specific details and I can only hope that the typical clogging, warping and non sticking problems have seriously nearly vanished with the 3-5 basic build materials. Have they on the S5 ?

Ultimaker has an office at New Lab, not only do they use them but nearly every hardware startup in the building. You might be able to visit them. Your MakerBot story has been told over and over and over, unfortunately. Are Ultimakers perfect? No, but you can run just about any material known to man and a HUGE community of third-party products exists around them. Alternatives to glass build platforms etc... The one problem I have with the S5 is the wifi disconnecting during a long build. It is annoying but will be fixed with the next firmware. What has been lifesaving is the printer pausing when filament runs out on a 6 day build. I simply went through the filament change routine, hit resume and went away. I print large prints over 2=6 days with zero worries. KPF architects using them worldwide. You never said your budget but Um's range from $3400-$6k for dual extrusion capable printers. $2500-$3k for a single extrusion model. The only problem I have with 3d hubs ratings is this only represents hubs operators that may use our machines for business. It is my understanding the 50-60% of our sales are to the professional market. The next 20-30% is into the education market. The rest are a mix of small business and individuals. I hope this helps. Let me know if I can help.

[designrtUltimakerS5 0]

Nicolinux, Kman and I rodriguez, Thank you - all for the detailed answers to all of my questions. Really appreciate your great information to help me in my decision.  September 4th- will contact some resellers. Thank You !

[gr5 2,167]

@designrtUltimakerS5 - are you near NYC?  If so there are some nice people there who can demonstrate the S5.  LIke kman.  And others.

 

3D printers have definitely gotten better since the replicator 2X but maybe not as much as you are hoping.  The sales volume just isn't there - that's my theory anyway.  If they were as popular as cell phones then they would have improved as much as cell phones have since the first motorola cell phone.  Instead it's a comparatively small market.

 

Your 300mm requirement makes it tough.  Otherwise I might recommend my absolute favorite printer - the UM2go.  I have 3 of them (and an S5 and a UM3 and a Um2 and a UMO).  On this forum you are likely only going to get one answer: the S5.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

1 hour ago, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

Nicolinux, Kman and I rodriguez, Thank you - all for the detailed answers to all of my questions. Really appreciate your great information to help me in my decision.  September 4th- will contact some resellers. Thank You !

You are quite welcome. And, you can still come here for more questions to get answ3ered. So many considerations. And, as someone told me at a guitar store, find the one that feels right. Not the one that you think you should buy before you walked into the store.

[korneel 176]

2 hours ago, designrtUltimakerS5 said:

Nicolinux, Kman and I rodriguez, Thank you - all for the detailed answers to all of my questions. Really appreciate your great information to help me in my decision.  September 4th- will contact some resellers. Thank You !

 

i know you have already received plenty of answers.. but i do want to comment on some things you said ?

first of all; I've been lucky to switch to the Ultimaker S5 at launch, and have been running 8 Ultimaker s5s since the start, so I suppose that's about 3 or 4 months by now.. I run them 24/7 and I run them hard. my success rate has been close to 100 percent.. failures I've had have always been relatable to the weak part of the equation, namely me.. 

 

I print mostly PLA, the rest is NGEN, Nylon, PLA+PVA, some exotic materials based on client requests, and the only failures I've had have always been me being hasty, knowing something would fail and then thinking "meh, maybe it'll succeed..". 

 

as far as the 3D Hubs rating, I am one of the few hubs running the S5 on 3d hubs:

if you look at this article you can filter on the S5 and get test prints done on them:

https://www.3dhubs.com/blog/ultimaker-s5-on-3d-hubs/

 

you are saying you see bad reviews? i don't see them for the S5 on 3D Hubs. on general, the print quality from the S5 either gets 5 stars from my customers, or 1 star if they don't get FDM.. i don't really get middle ground reviews to be honest. 

My switch has been from the Um3 to the S5 and I can tell you with confidence that that has been one of the best decisions ever made. 

I use the printers for small scale production run (right now printing 3200 pieces for a UK company) but also for small orders like drone parts in Carbon Fiber. 

for me, these printers have been true workhorses and the most reliable printers I've ever used.. 

I've been in the printing game for about 4-5 years now, always running small to medium print farms, and I've never had a better printer then the S5. 

if you have questions, feel free to ask.. I'm not getting paid here to advertise these printers and if other printers were better, i'd happily tell you so.. go check out my hub at www.korneel.nl then you can see what I've done on just 3d hubs and how happy people have been.. hope that gives you some confidence..