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TwoDrunkOwls

Failed prints from new UM3

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I am having problems with my 1 1/2 week old UM3.  I've come here first to see what the Community thinks.  I've been haunting this sight for 2 months while researching the UM3 and I've grown to value your thoughts.  I'm attempting to change careers, which requires learning PTC's CREO Parametric Modeling Software and a good working knowledge of 3D printing.  Can you say "mid life crisis"??  I had a bad experience with my 'upgraded' multi material Prusa I3 M2/S so I decided to move to the UM3.  The Prusa single material was great, I learned a great deal trying to master Prusa's multi material upgrade, but it wouldn't work and I refuse to upgrade my upgrade.  So here I am.

 

Unfortunately my experience with the UM3 has been disappointing so far and is literally giving me butterflies in my stomach.?  Please understand that, other than my car, the Ultimaker 3 is by far the most expensive item I have ever purchased in my entire life.  By far.  So, I have come here to hopefully find out it's all my fault so I can calm down and start having fun.?

 

I am trying to print my favorite practice model of an Egyptian cat.  Unfortunately the support material stops extruding at regular intervals, causing the print to fail as seen below.  The grey one in the back was one i had left over from the Prusa.  The silver one in front is an earlier UM3 attempt that failed the same way, the support gets knocked off at the week point and i have to abort.

IMG_20181031_171809032.thumb.jpg.25d1f9486b8367f1a5a72d366292adb3.jpg

 

This print also failed twice for the same reason.  You can see the gaps in the support.

Untitled.jpg.d8a71c546a76ae5f566416a8e93f188d.jpg

 

I am using Ultimaker material and profiles with cura.  Just a few clicks and I was printing.  Outstanding.  Until the prints failed.  The only bright spot is that the gyro has been printing for ~ 2 days now and the support shows no sign of this symptom.  The print is still coming out bad though.  The support has been knocked off in a few spots but I will cross that bridge later.  The fact that the support is not having extrusion problems with the gyro makes me think this problem is something I am doing.  Please help if you can.

 

Sorry for being long winded but I'm freaking out.?

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Hi and welcome here!

 

One more question, how do you store your PVA spool? Because PVA is well known to absorb a lot moisture and then the PVA gets really bad. This can happen really quick, just a few hours if you have too must humidity in your area.

 

PVA support printing is generally not as easy as it should. There are a lot of threads here, just use the search function, with several problems and solutions.

 

In my opinion you could have to different problems:

1.) PVA stops extruding (moisture?, clogged nozzle in the BB core - do you use the BB core for PVA?)

2.) support structure not stable enough - there are some Cura options, but I am not the support structure expert.

 

But, to give you a better feeling, it is not the fault of your printer. So relax, read the posts here and try some smaller parts first to get a feeling what settings are needed to get a more stable support.

 

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1 hour ago, Smithy said:

In my opinion you could have to different problems:

1.) PVA stops extruding (moisture?, clogged nozzle in the BB core - do you use the BB core for PVA?)

2.) support structure not stable enough - there are some Cura options, but I am not the support structure expert.

 

But, to give you a better feeling, it is not the fault of your printer. So relax, read the posts here and try some smaller parts first to get a feeling what settings are needed to get a more stable support.

 

 

Thanks for the welcome Smithy,

 

As for your suggestions:

1.) PVA stops extruding (moisture?, clogged nozzle in the BB core - do you use the BB core for PVA?)

  • The PVA that came with the printer came out of the bag snapping and popping with too much moisture.  It was still flexible after it printed.  I dried it out on the build plate for 4 hrs and it printed much better.  It was much stiffer when it printed.  I printed the robot (it had failed the first time due to no support under the antenna) and it came out OK.  I opened a new spool of PVA that came in during the week and that was dry but still failed with this symptom.  I am using the BB core but I can't see how it would 'unclog' itself and start printing again.

2.) support structure not stable enough - there are some Cura options, but I am not the support structure expert.

  • I tried using 'ZigZag' infill pattern and playing around with it but that failed on the horse model.

 

Quite frankly this printer is advertised as being able to print right out of the box.  If you use their materials and their profiles you should get a successful print.  IMHO, I should not have to adjust a thing to get a complete print.  The quality of that print can always be improved by study and patience, but for $3500 the print should come out right.  Sorry for the rant but if I had purchased this from a brick and mortar store it would have been returned by now.

 

Regards.

 

Edited by TwoDrunkOwls
spelling

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20 minutes ago, TwoDrunkOwls said:

 

Cura 3.5.1

I asked because I have read where others were having support issues with Ultimaker Cura 3.5 and 3.5.1 and reverted back to using 3.4.1.

 

I use 3.4.1 and until today when I am trying the Ultimaker Breakaway material; all of my prints have required PVA support.

 

The only issue  that I have had with PVA has been the Prime Tower.

 

Unless someone has a better or more viable suggestion I would encourage you to try Ultmaker Cura 3.4.1.

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12 minutes ago, TwoDrunkOwls said:

Quite frankly this printer is advertised as being able to print right out of the box.  If you use their materials and their profiles you should get a successful print.  IMHO, I should not have to adjust a thing to get a complete print.  The quality of that print can always be improved by study and patience, but for $3500 the print should come out right.  Sorry for the rant but if I had purchased this from a brick and mortar store it would have been returned by now.

 

It is basically not wrong and you get beautiful prints out of the box with the Ultimakers, but maybe not so out of the box with PVA. It is more a problem of the material as with the printer. 

 

The UM printers are in a higher price range, but that don't mean you can print with just a click. In 90% it is just a click, but more sophisticated prints and to these fraction I also count PVA support, it isn't. But I am sure after your first disappointment you will be very happy with it. Compare an Anet A8 and the Prusa, there is a big difference and now you did the next step but the UMs are not the top of the hill.

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43 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

It is basically not wrong and you get beautiful prints out of the box with the Ultimakers, but maybe not so out of the box with PVA. It is more a problem of the material as with the printer. 

 

The UM printers are in a higher price range, but that don't mean you can print with just a click. In 90% it is just a click, but more sophisticated prints and to these fraction I also count PVA support, it isn't. But I am sure after your first disappointment you will be very happy with it. Compare an Anet A8 and the Prusa, there is a big difference and now you did the next step but the UMs are not the top of the hill.

Well stated.......

 

We are fortunate that humidity is not an issue as such PVA works fairly well; in fact, for intricate items it is phenomenal.

 

I learned the hard way; do “not” leave PVA in the nozzle if printing without it as it will get cooked in the Print Core.

 

My recommendation is to unload and remove it after every print so as to reduce the risk.

 

Takes care 

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Smithy,

 

I do understand that the UM3 is not top of the heap.  The parts coming out of the printers at work teach me that every day.  However, and I say this with all due respect, one look at UM's website tells me that support printing is where they believe this product shines.  That is why I am so bummed out, not to say worried.  I'll give you last word on that if you want it.??

 

As for moisture in the PVA I am with you.  After 2+ days of printing the gyro failed.  The support material printed worse and worse and then stopped altogether.  Has to be moisture.  I hope.  

 

IMG_0425.thumb.JPG.22443e29b1d3e0a6117fede437676e7f.JPG

 

I am going to start two topics in the Materials forum, one for the Egyptian Cat and one for the gyro.  Most likely should have put this there to begin with.  I guess I'll reserve this thread for my posts stating how much I am freaking out that this printer and I are now 1 for 10 using support.  

 

That's:

  • 9 fails
  • 1 success
  • 1.6 million butterflies in my gut hinting that I may have made a big mistake.

 

Oh yeah, this is the only successful print.  I shall name him '3500'.  Because so far, THAT'S HOW MUCH HE COST ME!

IMG_20181103_184251490_HDR.thumb.jpg.40a576e90fa32fe20759fede42adc810.jpg

 

Sorry about the 'all caps'.  Whew!  I feel much better.?

 

Regards,

TwoDrunkOwls

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27 minutes ago, TwoDrunkOwls said:

Smithy,

 

I do understand that the UM3 is not top of the heap.  The parts coming out of the printers at work teach me that every day.  However, and I say this with all due respect, one look at UM's website tells me that support printing is where they believe this product shines.  That is why I am so bummed out, not to say worried.  I'll give you last word on that if you want it.??

 

As for moisture in the PVA I am with you.  After 2+ days of printing the gyro failed.  The support material printed worse and worse and then stopped altogether.  Has to be moisture.  I hope.  

 

IMG_0425.thumb.JPG.22443e29b1d3e0a6117fede437676e7f.JPG

 

I am going to start two topics in the Materials forum, one for the Egyptian Cat and one for the gyro.  Most likely should have put this there to begin with.  I guess I'll reserve this thread for my posts stating how much I am freaking out that this printer and I are now 1 for 10 using support.  

 

That's:

  • 9 fails
  • 1 success
  • 1.6 million butterflies in my gut hinting that I may have made a big mistake.

 

Oh yeah, this is the only successful print.  I shall name him '3500'.  Because so far, THAT'S HOW MUCH HE COST ME!

IMG_20181103_184251490_HDR.thumb.jpg.40a576e90fa32fe20759fede42adc810.jpg

 

Sorry about the 'all caps'.  Whew!  I feel much better.?

 

Regards,

TwoDrunkOwls

Frustration understood and appropriate.

 

NO issue with the CAPS... 

 

You need to be heard.

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Your PVA has absorbed too much moisture and maybe also clogged your nozzle. The material is very sensitive and a lot of people print PVA out of a dry box to keep it also during print dry. Drying on the print bed works, but will take really long and it works better if you put the spool just with a towel on in on the bed and not in a plastic bag. Do it overnight and not just for a few hours.

 

Then you should also do several hot and cold pulls to clean the nozzle.

 

And again, please keep just on thread for this issue, because the kmanstudiios gave you the same hints already in one of your other threads.

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@TwoDrunkOwls PVA gorges on any kind of moisture like you wouldn't believe, and it leads to failed prints like yours. PLA is also kind of sensitive to moisture, but much less.

 

The solution when doing long prints with PVA is to use a drybox, as @kmanstudios mentioned.

 

Take a look at this thread for more explanations and links to DIY dryboxes; you can also buy some in some stores, but they're expensive and not really better anyway:

 

Edited by Brulti
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Thanks for the replies.  I dried out the PVA as well as I could.  I then put the PVA and the spool holders from my failed Prusa multi-material upgrade in a plastic bag with descant and sealed the bag as best I can while printing.  This setup will be upgraded.  It is now apparent that the first, and most important, item on my pre-print checklist is 'dry PVA'.

 

I was able to successfully print a smaller version of the cat.  The support interface regions came out nasty looking, but this was printed at .2 mm layer height with just a few clicks of the mouse.  No sign of intermittent extrusion but the support it is only 30 mm high in this print.  I expected it to look better, using UM3's materials and profiles, but at least it printed.

 

IMG_0446.thumb.JPG.648be1938a9a0b4010107efdbd776fd9.JPGIMG_0457.thumb.JPG.110e206ddd7f829aeb52db0977542978.JPG

 

I was also able to print my horse.  However, the support did intermittently fail to extrude.  Not nearly as bad as before but it did weaken the support structure, allowing it to warp and move around, which lead to failure.  I'm not sure at which point the support failed.  It had made it above the eyes last I looked, but was strewn all over the place in the morning.  The print came out nice but I consider this another failure and still have no faith in this printer's ability to print support material "as advertised".

 

IMG_0458.thumb.JPG.aae45414c52241eaa1cf93488517948e.JPG

 

Again, the support interface areas are a bit rough but look much better at .1 mm layer height (I think, it may have been 1.5 mm).  If the support hadn't failed even I'd be happy with this.?

 

IMG_0467.thumb.JPG.7a59b0c9fd18f69761fe9709da45fea1.JPG

IMG_0466.thumb.JPG.ff891446cbaafcac3be344877011829a.JPG

 

 

 

 

 

So..... this makes:

  • 9 failed prints
  • 2 successes (one looks like crap)
  • 1 fail that still came out well.
  • Butterflies have been replaced with disappointment.

 

While I am greatly disappointed with this printers ability to print support material as advertised I no longer worry that I have made a mistake.  If this is the best there is, so be it.  The support material intermittently failing to extrude does still worry me though.  I hope it's as simple as moisture issues.  Exploration and learning is 3/4 of the reason why got into this hobby so I've gotten what I asked for.  I'll see what happens when I am confident my PVA is as dry as I can get it.  Thanks for all the suggestions and links.  From now on my new motto is....

 

TRUST IN GOD BUT KEEP YOUR POWDER PVA DRY!

 

IMG_0446.JPG

IMG_0457.JPG

IMG_0458.JPG

IMG_0464.JPG

IMG_0467.JPG

IMG_0466.JPG

Edited by TwoDrunkOwls

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There is a setting called support roof which should make the surface above a support structure cleaner and nicer. I haven't tried it myself, but check this setting with a test print.

 

Normally there is always a little space between support and the surface of the object to get off the support easier and cleaner. With PVA this should be not the case, so I am not sure if support roof really helps in this case.

 

But you can tune support with a lot of options, so it is not just turn and go.

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Chosing PVA material should automatically set the Support Roof at 0, so it will create a nice platform upon whihc your PLA will be printed. Of course, layer height counts as well, and the aspect will be much better at 0.06 than at 0.2.

 

As for drying PVA, my opinion is that 24h is not enough. I've waited a week before reusing my 'wet' PVA, giving ample time for the desiccant to suck up all the moisture from the roll and I used another new roll that I had to print stuff. The 'wet' PVA still had some tiny problems, but it was like a few spots with drop-sized patches of moisture which had no effect on the support as a whole, or the print.

 

Quite impressively, support made of PVA can recover from bad spots. Like, if a couple centimeters of support do not stick to the build plate, but the rest does, then it's usually fine because, as layers upon layers of PVA are piled upon the bad spot, it sort of smooth it out and the support as a whole does it's job perfectly. I can't count the number of times where I spotted a small defect in the support, let the print run it's course and it came out with no problem at all, the defect being corrected or buried by the following layers of PVA.

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O always set my sup[port interface to a bit higher than the default when using PVA. Also remember, that the resolution of the support is going to match the overall layer height, so it may have 'lines' in it.

 

And, yeah, PVA is just a pain to work with, but you will get the hang of it for your environment.

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