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mgg

Higher Nozzle Temperature

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Hi,

the maximum nozzle temperature of the UM2 is said to be 260°C. Is there a chance to go higher than that? I know some nylon parts are included in the printhead, but if they were replaced is a higher temperature technically possible?

 

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Theoretically, it's no problem. You just have to replace all of the parts which can't go over 260° with parts that can. This might include just about every part except for the aluminum block, nozzle and brass pipe. I don't know the temperature sensor and heater cartridge specifications, but I guess they are not made for much higher temperatures.

I think usually, no one bothers because for plastic you don't need to go higher than 260°C. But there should be suitable materials for your needs.

However, I don't think that you'll find direct replacement parts - you'll have to make them yourself. That may be a bit of a problem...

/edit:

Oh, and there's also the matter of heat transfer / insulation. The materials surrounding the printhead must not get too hot, so you can't just go 500°C and expect the printhead to be as cool as with 250°C on it's "cold" side. There you may run into more trouble than just finding higher-temp materials... This is a question of printhead geometry / layout.

I think you'd be better off with an Original Ultimaker - it's easier to create a custom printhead (which is what you're probably going for...) for the UM1.

 

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I dont want to go that high, about 300°C. Printing with fluoropolymers would be nice (PTFE, FEP...) but they have even higher melting temperatures. I'm pretty sure the temperature sensors (Pt100) should be able to handle these temperatures, but I'm also not sure about the heater cartridge. Unfortunately the printhead blueprints are not available yet.

 

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I've been thinking what to replace pieces of the print head with as well MGG. I think casting the pieces in a high durometer silicone would be a good idea. I can see a couple of drawback, potentially thin walls may not withstand high pressures in the teflon coupler, I think some high temperature fibers layered into the cast before it set would help; although I've never layered anything into silicone before. Any thoughts? I've also been thinking of some heat mitigating washer that sits atop the heating print head where it mates with the teflon coupler, think a fireproof cardboard type material, still trying to pin that one down exactly.

 

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Some hot end designs are designed to go to 300C and hotter. Some will melt certain low temp metals. Have you looked into the E3D for example?

270C is probably fine but 300C is too hot for the teflon part I think. The thing is the 3rd, rear fan cools things so well that it probably doesn't get anywhere near as hot on that teflon part but it's hard to tell what the temp is on the *inside* edge of it. Of course you would also have to edit Marlin and change the max temp constant. That's pretty easy though.

 

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I think maybe it *is* a PT100 RTD in the print head. I'm pretty sure that's what Illuminarti claimed after reading the Marlin code for the UM2. Maybe he's wrong. But this is a new device for me.

I've heard of thermocouples (which are sensitive to noise) and thermistors (which typically get damaged a bit if they hit 250C) but not these "resistor thermometers" which can typically go up to 450C and aren't so sensitive to noise.

 

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I agree with gr5.

The gain of the instrumentation amplifier (10) is what is needed to take a pt100 up to 4.88mV per degree. And as the arduino has a 10 bit A/D, 5/1024 is 4.88mV. The output from the A/D is one count per degree.

Oh, and the schematic says its a pt100 :p

 

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Hi,

Was about to create a post with the same question and in the meantime MGG stepped forward.

How do I allow my UM2 accept the setup of 265º-270ºC? I was trying to print with black ABS, but it seems that 260°C is not enough. I think for the equipment this slight temperature increase should be irrelevant, however it seems that I can only have good quality print with black ABS at 260°C without ventilation!? I am not sure that this temperature increase will solve the problem but surely I wanted to try...

I use a lot of temp sensors in my work and the UM2 sensor temp is indeed a PT100 sensor

Thanks in advance

 

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Ultimaker2 marlin source:

https://github.com/Ultimaker/SecretMarlin

 

Instructions are in the README file. Here's my explanation:

Basically you download and install arduino ide:

http://arduino.cc/en/main/software

Then copy the sanguino software as explained in README file. Open Marlin.ino file in Arduino IDE by double clicking it (not pde file as stated in README - I think that's old). Select board as "Mega 2560" as explained in README file. Go to "file" "preferences" and select "verbose output" so you can find your hex file. Then build it by clicking the check box in the upper left corner. At the bottom you will see it compiling Marlin. At the end of this it says where the hex file is. If you are currently connected to your UM through USB you can just click "file" "upload" and you are done! But you should locate that hex file and save it somewhere along with the Configuration.h file used to create it so you can recreate the same version with maybe one change. Also you can upload the hex file using Cura.

Alternatively you can build Marlin with somewhat more detailed step by step instructions the command line way (which I don't prefer):

http://www.extrudable.me/2013/05/03/building-marlin-from-scratch/

 

 

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Wow, that's cool :)

I always wondered why they didn't use PT100s because it's actually one of the sensors that is usable over a pretty large temperature range and give good results.

However, a PT100 can be susceptible to noise, too, if not designed properly. Had to fiddle with that kind of stuff before (soft solder die bonder machine, had lots of temperature sensors on it :D).

But they also had a little bit bigger motors on that machine, so there was more noise around than on an Ultimaker...

 

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Pt100s can be susceptible to high frequency electronic noises too, but I have only seen thermistors and thermocouples with this problem, never on a resistance thermometer (Pt100s) seems they are not as noise sensitive as the others.

Usually we apply a ferrite clamp to attenuate the RFI/EMI electronic noises. Easy fix ;)

 

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Good to hear they came some way from the Original Ultimaker - which is basically a hobbyist project. Works really well, but the electronics design is... well... hobbyist style :)

If I remember correctly, we fixed our problems by measuring the PT100 with PWM at considerably higher current than rated - but only for a short time. That neglected the error.

But this was done with a ridiculously expensive industrial heater controller (made by the Swiss company Indel), guess they know what they're doing..

 

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If you replace the teflon piece by something that resists a higher temperature, then you can print a lot hotter.

I've left an UM2 running at 100% heater power for an extended period, the only damage was that the bottom black head piece was deformed, and the teflon was damaged.

Note that you are outside normal specs. So I cannot guarantee anything. But it should be pretty safe when you replace the teflon.

 

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If you replace the teflon piece by something that resists a higher temperature, then you can print a lot hotter.

I've left an UM2 running at 100% heater power for an extended period, the only damage was that the bottom black head piece was deformed, and the teflon was damaged.

Note that you are outside normal specs. So I cannot guarantee anything. But it should be pretty safe when you replace the teflon.

 

Hey Daid, could you explain exactly what happened to the teflon? Did it melt or deform a little? Also, for my notes, can you you recall the approximate length of time you had the heater powered on for? And another also, did you have all the fans running?

Thanks!

 

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It seems that the teflon's melting point is 327°C; 620°F, so I suppose that will deform around 300ºC/310ºC

Maybe we can make the parts in aluminium!? ceramic? ceramic fibers?

I think the ceramic fibers wold be the best to avoid the heat transfer, since the bowden tube is inside of the teflon piece. The only problem is that this stuff is high-tech and must be very expensive.

Addicional note: the ceramic fibers made from silicon, boron, nitrogen and carbon can withstand temperatures of more than 1,500 degrees Celsius. :twisted:

 

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How about an all metal construction, like the E3D hotend?

They state that they can go up to 300°C without problems (whatever that may be good for). Theoretically, you should be able to go even higher just by altering the design for that special purpose. Maybe watercool the "cold" part.

It would definetly be much easier than using ceramics or some other high-tech material..

 

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Sorry Martin - too much work for me. You have to download the software from here:

Ultimaker2 marlin source:

https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker2Marlin

 

Then you have to search through the code for 260 and 270 and increase the limits everywhere. It should be pretty easy to change the code - it is extremely well documented. You might only need to edit the configuration.h file. Not sure.

To build marlin:

Basically you download and install arduino ide:

http://arduino.cc/en/main/software

Then copy the sanguino software as explained in README file. Open Marlin.ino file in Arduino IDE by double clicking it (not pde file as stated in README- I think that's old). Select board as "Mega 2560" as explained in README file. Go to "file" "preferences" and select "verbose output" so you can find your hex file. Then build it by clicking the check box in the upper left corner. At the bottom you will see it compiling Marlin. At the end of this it says where the hex file is. If you are currently connected to your UM through USB you can just click "file" "upload" and you are done! But you should locate that hex file and save it somewhere along with the Configuration.h file used to create it so you can recreate the same version with maybe one change. Also you can upload the hex file using Cura in expert menu.

Alternatively you can build Marlin with somewhat more detailed step by step instructions the command line way (which I don't prefer):

http://www.extrudable.me/2013/05/03/building-marlin-from-scratch/

 

 

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