S5 magnetic build plate

[greenlee 2]

When UM dropped the aluminum build plate, which to be honest i didn't really think brought much value to the machine as flexible plates with low cost surface replacements are now preferred for Pet and other advanced materials, I had this prototype made up to test if this is a valid solution.

Photos here -> https://photos.app.goo.gl/DXcQfq6DHkns8ekg6

so far it's working perfectly and i'm very please with the outcome.

Is there any interest in a group buy? as a one off part it was quite expensive.

[RudydG 62]

Nice, i am in in interested, if, and only if, the total concept of the UM5 stays intact, the automatic bed levelling with the glass plate is so perfect, that i can not mis this anymore. My UM3 feels like a old machine without this feature.

 

[greenlee 2]

7 hours ago, RudydG said:

Nice, i am in in interested, if, and only if, the total concept of the UM5 stays intact, the automatic bed levelling with the glass plate is so perfect, that i can not mis this anymore. My UM3 feels like a old machine without this feature.

 

Six jobs done since the first post Friday. No issues with auto leveling.

This is not soft like some of the flex magnet solutions, the steel plate is held firmly against borofloat glass and does not move during leveling.

Ill shoot a video while leveling on the next reset.

 

[PaulK 14]

I'm interested

[greenlee 2]

video added to photo album https://photos.app.goo.gl/DXcQfq6DHkns8ekg6

[rachael7 73]

Resurrecting this thread to see if there was any follow-up to this. I see that a few manufacturers are making flexible build plate systems for the S5 now, including WhamBam and BuildTak, among others; but I'm a bit nervous about actually trying it. Are you still using yours successfully?  Ever have bed leveling issues?  Anyone else out there using one of the commercially available ones and have any feedback?

[artistebot 3]

i have one of these coming in a few weeks to try on my 2+. I think it might fit my S3 too. (229mm x 257mm)

 

I am pretty happy w PEI applied to my glass plate, but if the flex makes removal easier and works reliably in a UM...?

 

Not sure if it will play nice w ASA, but I think ABS will be just fine.

[rachael7 73]

9 hours ago, artistebot said:

i have one of these coming in a few weeks to try on my 2+…

Thanks for the reply, but I’m asking specifically about the S5. It has some unique things, particularly the auto bed leveling that cannot be turned off, that both make it behave differently than other machines and give me cause to worry, hence my inquiry. 

[kayakbabe 12]

I am interested too. I want it for pla and petg... but I"m also interested in printing nylon and Igus filiments so PEI is definitely a surface I want too.

 

I'm in if there is a group buy.

Edited August 9, 2021 by kayakbabe

[rachael7 73]

On 8/9/2021 at 4:20 PM, kayakbabe said:

I am interested too. I want it for pla and petg... but I"m also interested in printing nylon and Igus filiments so PEI is definitely a surface I want too.

 

I'm in if there is a group buy.

 

So after some experimentation and communication with Fbrc8, I've determined that any build surface that can be damaged by a hot nozzle during bed-leveling isn't going to work. Normal PEI film takes indents from the hot nozzles during the bed-leveling that not only mess up the cosmetic finish of the part, but also results in bad readings on the mesh leveling. The problem is that the nozzles are hot when the bed probing starts, having just come off the priming process; but they are being allowed to cool as the probing goes on, so by the end of the probing, they are mostly cool and aren't pushing into the film as much, and therefore the machine gets different readings from beginning to end of the probing, resulting in a bad mesh.  I tried Kapton tape and the result was the same, although to a lesser degree as the Kapton I tested was a lot thinner than the PEI. 

 

I plan to try a powder-coated PEI plate next, in hopes that the powder coating is less prone to taking an impression from the hot nozzle than the film version.  I'll report back with my findings, but right now, I'm not real hopeful for a build surface other than the glass, unless Ultimaker will change the start-up cycle to add in a cooling period before the probing starts, so the temperature of the nozzles is the same all the way through the probing process.

 

If you want to play with it though, no need to wait for a group buy; WhamBam and Buildtak have them now, as do a couple of vendors on AliExpress.  Just be forewarned, it's probably not going to work out real well and you might be wasting your money.

Edited August 10, 2021 by rachael7

[kayakbabe 12]

Interesting about the nozzle temps changing as bed leveling progresses. Have you filed a bug report with Ultimaker about it? 

I"m going to go ahead and get the build tak setup. I would have preferred something the same thickness for a build plate. Oh well. 

The part I'm making of nylon isn't super critical, being able to get it off the bed easily is the most important thing for me right now.

 

[rachael7 73]

2 minutes ago, kayakbabe said:

Interesting about the nozzle temps changing as bed leveling progresses. Have you filed a bug report with Ultimaker about it? 

I"m going to go ahead and get the build tak setup. I would have preferred something the same thickness for a build plate. Oh well. 

The part I'm making of nylon isn't super critical, being able to get it off the bed easily is the most important thing for me right now.

 

I haven't filed a bug report, because I don't think it would be considered a bug.  The nozzle temps aren't drifting or behaving oddly, they're just cooling from extrusion temperature (for priming) down to standby temperature (as they always do when not in use). The challenge for us is that they're doing that cooling while the machine is also probing the build plate. When probing a glass plate, the temperature of the nozzle doesn't matter, so from the perspective of an engineer working on the assumption that glass is the only build surface that will be used, it would be a waste of the user's time to wait for the nozzles to cool down to standby temperature before probing. In fact, I suspect that it might well have waited like that at one point, only to have the behavior changed in subsequent firmware, to save time in the startup sequence (a couple of FW revisions have focused on speeding that process up). At any rate, it has no impact on people using the machine with the specified glass build plate, so I doubt you'll convince UM to consider it a bug.

[rachael7 73]

8 minutes ago, kayakbabe said:

Interesting about the nozzle temps changing as bed leveling progresses. Have you filed a bug report with Ultimaker about it? 

I"m going to go ahead and get the build tak setup. I would have preferred something the same thickness for a build plate. Oh well. 

The part I'm making of nylon isn't super critical, being able to get it off the bed easily is the most important thing for me right now.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I bought a piece of aluminum as a base for the magnet in my setup.  I used 2024-T3, since it is the likeliest to be flat, of the inexpensive alloys.  I chose the thickness (0.100") so that the combination of aluminum, magnet, and flex plate was about the same thickness as the glass, allowing the clamps to work normally and keeping the machine within the expected range of heights.

[Josh_gpi 5]

I have purchased the Wham Bam build plate setup for our Ultimaker S5 and have been seeing lots of successful prints. It works dramatically better then the glass build plate and has had no issues with active leveling (I applied the magnet on top of the glass and then put the Wham Bam on top so it is higher then usual but the Ultimaker adjusts automatically).

 

I will agree that I have seen the issue with the hotend slightly digging into the PEX coated aluminum surface, but in the time we have had it these small indents have causes no issues. It is in the same locations every time and it seems to only be a very minor (if almost even cosmetic) issue.

 

I am on a company budget, but IMO the Wham Bam are 100% worth the investment. TBD how long they will last, but even if they only lasted a year would definitely be worth it compared to anything else. 

 

Have printed Carbon Fiber Nylon, Polycarbonate, PLA, Abs, etc. all with no problems. Either way you go good luck!

[rachael7 73]

22 hours ago, Josh_gpi said:

I have purchased the Wham Bam build plate setup for our Ultimaker S5 and have been seeing lots of successful prints. It works dramatically better then the glass build plate and has had no issues with active leveling (I applied the magnet on top of the glass and then put the Wham Bam on top so it is higher then usual but the Ultimaker adjusts automatically).

So glad to hear you're having good success with it! The problem I had was that the nozzle pressing into the PEI/PEX surface led the printer to set the zero point a little below the surface of the PEI/PEX. I tend to run thin first layers, commonly 0.10mm, and the offset created by the indent in the build surface was enough to make the nozzle way to close to the build surface on the first layer. Do you tend to run thicker first layers?  Or maybe you use a Z offset to compensate?  The stock profiles do have thicker first layers, so if you haven't changed that, perhaps that's why it's working for you.  I don't doubt that it is working for you, I'm just curious how you get around the zeroing problem.

[Josh_gpi 5]

Hey Rachel,

 

To answer your questions,

 

It could be just straight marketing, but I think PEI and PEX are really two distinct surfaces. It could be just straight marketing, but I believe PEX is marketed as having a higher temperature resistance and this may help with this issue. (You can check out this thread on flexplates where they had issues with Buildtak and moved to Wham Bam and seemed to be doing well). As of this point, it does not seem that the zero point is below the surface, but over more extended time we may run into this issue with PEX...TBD. 

I do tend to run thicker first layers (0.2mm) but this is because I don't have a need for thin layers. Also particularly for materials like PC this greatly helps with the prints imo.

 

I do not use a Z offset to compensate currently, but I do have some custom profiles and settings in Cura for materials. I plan to post a thread soon about the rest of my setup if that would help.

 

So I did not really get around the zeroing problem, it just has not been a problem for me thus far with Wham Bam.

 

Also to wrap up just wanted to say,

 

Although this might not technically be a bug, I agree that such a limited calibration setup (where you cannot calibrate before having a dangerously hot nozzle or disable heat for calibration, etc.) is very harmful to users and could dissuade people away from Ultimaker products. This greatly limits the flexibility and usefulness of the printers with flex plates, making them worse printers. Imo this should be treated like a very important bug and be resolved.

 

Best of luck printing!

[rachael7 73]

28 minutes ago, Josh_gpi said:

 

Thanks so much for the information! You are correct, at least as far as marketing goes, that PEX and PEI are different. I've tried both though, including the one from WhamBam, and had pretty similar issues, so I was just using shorthand.

 

Interesting that it hasn't been an issue for you. I suspect it is because of the 0.2mm first layers. I'll have to give that a try. I'll check out your other thread when it comes out, no need to detail other settings here. Thank you.

 

I couldn't agree more about the limitations of the prime/de-prime/calibration sequences and I've voiced that pretty loudly to anyone who would listen at UM. It really lands wrong for me that such a capable machine, at such a high price point, would be arbitrarily locked down in the many ways it is. I get wanting to ensure consistent good results to inexperienced or semi-experienced users, and the desire to lock down the machine to accomplish that goal.  But I really feel like they should give us an "expert mode" or something like that which allows us  to get into the machine on a deeper level. I would happily accept whatever waivers or limitations of support that came with enabling such an option, as it would provide so much more flexibility and allow the machine to reach its full potential. Limiting the machine to only glue-on-glass build surfaces in 2021 is shortsighted - it leaves the machine several years behind where the tech is now and stops it from advancing as build surfaces inevitably continue to improve.

[kayakbabe 12]

It seems like it would be easy for UM to have the default startup as it is now, but to add a preferences setting to startup that keeps nozzles from heating until bed leveling is completed. That way those of us using alternatives to glass can choose to enable it if we wish. 

 

Could this be done with a plug in?

[rachael7 73]

It's definitely not difficult to do. The question is if they will let us have that flexibility. Thus far, the answer has been no.

[kayakbabe 12]

I have to add to this thread. I bought the BuildTak and am super pleased with it. No brainer install. Just put the magnetic layer on the glass and a pei sheet on the metal surface. No settings to change and the S5 just autolevels and goes along just fine. Way better than a glue stick, or hair spray. So far I"ve printed PLA and PETG and it's GREAT!

 

[rachael7 73]

Just to add a bit more data to this thread, while the smooth PEI never did work for me the way I wanted it to, the powder coated PEI works great. I often don't mind the texture it imparts and adhesion has been stellar for PLA, tough PLA, and ABS.

 

More recently, I've been using a Garolite (aka G10 or FR4) build plate.  I got a 1/8" piece from McMaster-Carr, pre-cut to the right size, and it has been working a treat. PETG sticks perfectly and releases without drama, and it is one of the tougher filaments to use on a glass plate (due to taking chips out of the glass). No issues on the Garolite at all, and no need of glues or other treatments. I'll be trying it on Nylon and PC soon to see if it can handle the really difficult stuff - all the testing I've seen on YouTube and such says it will, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Edited April 27, 2022 by rachael7

[3dprntz 4]

How easy does it release from the build plate, and does it fit well in the clips? I wondered too if the auto-bed leveling would damage it.

Edited April 27, 2022 by 3dprntz

[rachael7 73]

1 minute ago, 3dprntz said:

How easy does it release from the build plate, and does it fit well in the clips? I wondered too if the auto-bed leveling would damage it.

if you mean the Garolite, release is good. Many parts fully release on their own, some need a slight pull. The only thing that's given me any trouble is prime tower brims. I never use brims on parts, but the prime tower ones are stuck a little more than I'd like. but even at that, they still come free with a bit of gentle scraper action, nothing difficult at all.  Build plate temperatures are in the same general range as with the glass plate.

 

As far as durability, it is holding up very well so far - at least up to the 260-265C printing temperatures I've been using lately, I'm not seeing any damage or residual part imprints on the build plate. Nor am I seeing any damage from the bed leveling at that material temperature, even in that one spot next to the nozzle switch location that it uses more frequently. If you're printing up closer to the 300C point, I don't have data at those temps yet, but I will say that I've seen YouTubers using it with Nylon and polycarbonate, so it must work up to at least the 280C range. The other good thing is that you can sand the surface if it ever gets damaged, assuming you're using the thicker material. It is a nasty material in terms of dust inhalation, so you'd want to wear a mask or maybe wet sand, but you can definitely renew the surface if it gets messed up.

 

I'm using 1/8" (3.1mm) Garolite from McMaster-Carr, which is loose in the clips by itself. You can easily bend the clips closed a bit and it will work fine or you can do as I did and put a piece of sheet aluminum under it to bring it up to the same 4mm thickness as the glass.  Alternatively, you can get a thin sheet of Garolite, bend the clips open a little bit, and put the Garolite on top of the glass. I'm not a fan of that approach though, as the Garolite won't really work well at anything less than 1.5mm-2mm thickness, which is more stretching of the clips than I'm comfortable with. A thin piece applied to a flex plate, along with a magnetic base (either on top of the glass or instead of the glass) is another possible option, which also gives you the benefit of assisting the release when you flex the plate. As a side note, you can also use glue or tape on the Garolite if you have some special application where it doesn't work bare.

 

Suffice it to say, I'm a big fan right now and it's my everyday build plate. I've been running mostly PETG lately, so my data is a little limited; but I do print with engineering filaments fairly often and I'll continue to update the thread as I get more data. I just love that with PLA, Tough PLA, ABS, and PETG, I don't need to do any build plate prep beyond wiping with alcohol when it gets dirty.

[3dprntz 4]

Awesome! Did you have it cut by McMaster-Carr or in house? And do you have a link to the product?

[rachael7 73]

2 hours ago, 3dprntz said:

Awesome! Did you have it cut by McMaster-Carr or in house? And do you have a link to the product?

I did have McMaster cut it, so much easier than dealing with it myself. They have an 11" width, which is close enough to what we need, sold by the inch.  I had them cut it to 14 1/8" long, which is the closest 1/8" increment to what we need. It fits well and it was great not to have to deal with the dust.  The one I am using is at https://www.mcmaster.com/6275N133. I also used a piece of 6061-T6 from online metals underneath, which I also ordered cut to size, to bring it up to a thickness that is pretty close to the thickness of the glass. That product is at https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/aluminum/0-063-aluminum-sheet-6061-t6/pid/1242. Although looking at it now, the 1/8" Garolite plus the 0.063" aluminum actually adds up to the same thickness as the 3/16" Garolite that McMaster sells. I don't remember why I did it that way, could have been a mistake or maybe I was going to put it on a magnet or something. Anyway, it would actually be a little less costly to just get the 3/16" Garolite, which is at https://www.mcmaster.com/6275N158. Don't worry too much about the thickness being a little different than the glass - the clips are pretty accommodating and you can easily bend them a bit to tighten or loosen them as needed.

 

EDIT TO ADD: One other note - I did lightly scuff the surface of the Garolite with 0000 steel wool before the first use, just to knock down the gloss and make sure it was clean. Probably wasn't necessary, but seemed like a good precaution. Oh, and you can use both sides of the Garolite equally well, so you can always flip it over if it gets damaged.

Edited April 27, 2022 by rachael7