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jimdrew

eBay Ultimakers?

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Dont get fooled by the comments, most of them are fake. What they do is give you a few bucks back if you delete your negative comment. Actually most stuff sold on ebay from china is crap

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I took the plung, but only because it is fully backed by Paypal's guaranteed refund within 45 days. I got an email already from the company asking how I wanted the customs handled and i was told the kit will ship on Monday (China time) via EMS.

I have ordered thousands of dollars worth of stuff from China via eBay with zero issues. Maybe this will be the first, perhaps not. i will let everyone know.

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Beware of fakes. The ultimakers ship with green motherboards, not blue, and they ship from holland, not hongkong. Also, buying it from sources other than Ultimaker will likely void any warranties and support you get from the Ultimaker crew. If something gets broken then Ultimaker wont ship free replacement parts to you. Also, with buying from Ultimaker you also support innovation and give credit to the people that made the machines.

Also, note that this possibly could be rev 2, and not the latest revision that is sold by Ultimaker. They propably took the free files and sources their own parts together.

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Also, some parts on the kit are clearly an older revision. Thin bed, slider blocks.

I contacted them also with question about slider blocks and they answer to me this are rev3 with additional 10mm screw and just picture is taken from side where this is not visible I will ask them about some more pictures.

About CC/BY-NA license - better to let them on eBay - I preffer Chinese selling this expensive on eBay than dealing with bulk qtties with 5USD profit on alibaba. 7 days eBay return policy looks ok including PayPal. Picture of pulleys and extruder which they put on the auction contain the most complicated parts even moulded PEEK insulator so this is not a joke.

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better to let them on eBay

Just to make sure that you understand why I think this should not be on eBay: Ultimaker is a registrered trademark. Their licence gives the right for people to make & adapt the machine, however it is not allowed to sell it under the Ultimaker name (and thats what they are doing). Ultimaker can sue eBay for selling counterfeit items ;)

I would classify this one as "fake/counterfeit items", how unfortunately it would seem. If they can produce cheap machines, then I would suggest they put their effort in building a new kind of ultimaker, instead of just claiming that they are selling official ultimakers.

EDIT: trademark I was talking about

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better to let them on eBay

Just to make sure that you understand why I think this should not be on eBay: Ultimaker is a registrered trademark. Their licence gives the right for people to make & adapt the machine, however it is not allowed to sell it under the Ultimaker name (and thats what they are doing). Ultimaker can sue eBay for selling counterfeit items ;)

I would classify this one as "fake/counterfeit items", how unfortunately it would seem. If they can produce cheap machines, then I would suggest they put their effort in building a new kind of ultimaker, instead of just claiming that they are selling official ultimakers.

EDIT: trademark I was talking about

Yes but kicking them from eBay leave for them the most near way which can be alibaba, then is impossible to suit later small reprap shops which for sure will like to buy ultimakers in qtty of xx pcs in bulk price.

They wrote on eBay they Ultimaker is not Ultimaker just Hong Kong Ultimaker :D

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It seems that since the Ultimaker is all open source that we (the people) are just needing to locate all of the misc. parts. Clearly, these parts cost far less than $1400, and nothing is hard to find. This Chinese source just made it easier for us by putting together a complete kit of the required pieces (just like what Ultimaker has done), but with no lead time. If the name is trademarked, then they should at very least not use it and possibly come up with their own wood design. I have lasered my own wood kit which I have changed (cosmetically) from the Ultimaker design and will use that instead. I added mounts for LED lighting and some other small changes.

I will report back when I get the kit with its contents.

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It seems that since the Ultimaker is all open source that we (the people) are just needing to locate all of the misc. parts. Clearly, these parts cost far less than $1400, and nothing is hard to find. This Chinese source just made it easier for us by putting together a complete kit of the required pieces (just like what Ultimaker has done), but with no lead time. If the name is trademarked, then they should at very least not use it and possibly come up with their own wood design. I have lasered my own wood kit which I have changed (cosmetically) from the Ultimaker design and will use that instead. I added mounts for LED lighting and some other small changes.

I will report back when I get the kit with its contents.

Yes this looks simple same as building a RepRap which everyone estimate for 250-300USD and few days of work and then finishing up with 700USD bill many reordered parts and 2 months of work (including sourcing etc. in this days is a little simpler but before this was very hard job). When I try to also get a piece of ultimaker cake and ask about aluminium etc. parts then my calculation was about 20k USD needed to spend just for startup - no factory which want to even turn on machines for 1-10pcs maybe they can do it if you are a big company for which they want to make just a samples and then they wait for 1000pcs order in other cases 100pcs is a minimum and later as my experience with selling electronics say - 10% need to be calculated as damaged from factory, next 10% as damaged at soldering/assembly time and in most worst case last 10% as item "dead" in customer hands.

And about CC/NC license this is viral same as GNU - theoretically and practically you cannot use it in commercial product made by yourself even if you modify it in 99% this 1% which you take from it still glue you to CC/NC license and still this means NC for you because whole CC/NC is like a pyramide only first who put it is on the top.

About OpenSource hardware today I just can say "No comments" this licenses as CC/NC etc. is same OpenSource as my old Nokia phone - I can download for it schematic I can modify it in my home but I cannot selling modified phone I also cannot use work from this schematic in my product but just nokia is honest and don't make a fog with OpenSource - today OpenSource is just a way for make a fast marketing for young companies and then they will fight for money same as this evil corporations, lawyers, lawsuits etc. what is next... maybe commercials in TV with new Free OpenSource hardware for 999$ hehe ? :) With 3D printers everyone forgot the only who can lawsuit is a Stratasys which have patented in last xx yeras almost everything according to plastic printing and construciton of this kind of machines they are the real 3D printing just RepRap is a slowly copy&paste all patented ideas from there.

And I love Texas Instruments license:

// Texas Instruments (TI) is supplying this software for use solely and

// exclusively on TI's microcontroller products. The software is owned by

// TI and/or its suppliers, and is protected under applicable copyright

// laws. You may not combine this software with "viral" open-source

// software in order to form a larger program.

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And I love Texas Instruments license:

// You may not combine this software with "viral" open-source

// software in order to form a larger program.

That's less restrictive then the GPL license, which says you cannot and any extra conditions to the license in any way. So you cannot combine GPL with any software which has a clause a bit stricter then GPL. So you cannot combine GPL with a "Buy me a beer if you like this software and meet me" license.

(Exception: You can combine GPL with a newer version of GPL)

(And there is no GNU license, there is GPLv2, and GPLv3, and LGPL and AGPL, and even those may have a v2 and v3, confused yet?)

I've quite a bit of knowledge in the whole open source software license corner. Because we use a lot of GPL software in our products.

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Well, whatever license is behind it, the question is, why pay the same amount of cash to a China vendor?

- All sources are way cheaper there

- the fastest shippment possible will be 2 weeks until arival

- depending on the country you live in, have fun with tax (+19% tax, and about +4% import tax, depending on declaration in germany)

- zero support from vendor side

The only advantage would maybe saving 4 weeks in lead time.

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Well, whatever license is behind it, the question is, why pay the same amount of cash to a China vendor?

- All sources are way cheaper there

- the fastest shippment possible will be 2 weeks until arival

- depending on the country you live in, have fun with tax (+19% tax, and about +4% import tax, depending on declaration in germany)

- zero support from vendor side

The only advantage would maybe saving 4 weeks in lead time.

This is why this topic make me laught the most "- zero support from vendor side" so Ultimaker is na OpenSource project or some vendor profit project ? I was thinking OpenSource projects are to spread ideas but now clearly I can see this is only for selling a goods :)

- All sources are way cheaper there. - Vietnam is even more cheaper in my bearings from Ultimaker kit was wrote made in vietnam this means they have even more cheaper manufacturing cost :) Also coolers made in China other things mostly also as I can expect

- the fastest shippment possible will be 2 weeks until arival - they offer fedex so must give fedex who used this before know what this means.

- depending on the country you live in, have fun with tax (+19% tax, and about +4% import tax, depending on declaration in germany) - You also must pay this tax when you order this from Netherland the only exception is when you are a company then you can get VAT free otherwise you must pay VAT as private person from EU.

B.R.

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so Ultimaker is an OpenSource project or some vendor profit project

Kinda both. Like everyone that is selling reprap or any other parts... But you have the option how much you do by yourself and what you buy.

Get the kit and pay for them doying the work to collect, laser and bundle working components, or dive into the adventure... your choice ;), all plans are free and opensource.

The reason why I said that is, if somethings broken, or wrong, in my experience, you might get nothing from china and I am pretty confident, that you will have support from Ultimakers side.

Regarding pricing, well I don't see the advantage in buying from there. I don't argue with anybody about the way he is making his income. Actually trading pays part of my rent as well.

I know what fedex means, got a lot from fedex, especially from China. After about week to 10 days you will get a call, asking how to handle the tax. They will do all for you with the customs, as soon as you provide the respective informations. For their service they charge 25€ by the way. Another few days and you can pay in cash, as soon as the fedex guy steps at your door.

Regarding tax, sorry, this got lost in translation. Should mean, have fun with customs. Had not read, that they offer fedex. But if it would be the conventional postal service, you would need to pick the package at the customs office... whats a 50km ride in my case. Including a good session, about whats in the package and how to declare it. Seeking for CE stamps and stuff like that... got all that already.

In sum, I bought a lot of great stuff from china and they do an awesome job in making stuff at a price nobody in the western world would. I don't see that price here. So it makes no sense, taking the risk of getting outdated, cloned or broken stuff (maybe with the lack of support) and hassle with customs into account. The only thing here is, that they promise instant shippment. The parts I got from Ultimaker were really well done, except the coolers (they suck!), hope the package from China is at least the same quality.

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Just my opinion.

That chinese seller is probably violating some license and i wouldn't trust him since he has just 1 feedback. I've seen some newbie sellers offering stuff at half the retail price with 5-10 feedbacks from other newbie users. In short, they create some accounts and make fake transactions to get feedback.

But i must say that looking at the photos this could be real. Still, i think the price is too high.

Then, there is the lead time, probably shorter, and support, probably unexisting. But i don't have experience with Ultimaking either, i hope that they can find the time to follow their paying customers.

Ultimaking really need to decrease the lead time and be more present if they don't want to see other business like this to get in their way.

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It is disgraceful to buy this knock-off machine. In the spirit of supporting innovation, the original suppliers need to be compensated for their hard work and future research and development. How much much R&D do you think these copy-cats will engage in. They will simply wait for others to do the work and then copy it.

I suggest to not offer community support to those who known to own the counterfeit machines.

Buy this machine and aid in the demise of innovation.

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There are a few dozen companies that sell these exact same parts, linking to the open source project. Should all of these companies stop selling parts just because one company has bundled all of the parts together? Is that one company solely responsible for all of the open-source development of the machines that existed prior to the Ultimaker, where is technology evolved from?

When you make something open-source, you are knowingly giving anyone access to your technology, and at least in the U.S., that is considered public domain and open for free use. If a company wants to be compensated for all of 'their' hard work, then they should not make the information freely available to the public. The 'spirit' of open source is to provide a means where anyone and everyone can build it, not to limit it to certain individuals or one company.

What is your opinion about the Stratasys and other printers where patents clearly exist that the Ultimaker is violating (at least in the U.S.)?? An open source project would be difficult to go after since afterall, it is a non-profit venture. A for-profit venture would clearly put the owners of the patent infringing device at risk for legal action.

The only action that should take place with these "knock off" companies is changing the name to something that does not imply "Ultimaker". I have seen a few that do just that, saying that their machine is "reprag" compatible, with no mention of the Ultimaker name at all - even though the box is 100% identical (minus the robot and Ultimaker logo).

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...even though the box is 100% identical (minus the robot and Ultimaker logo).

That bit isn't entirely correct..

Reprap Prusa is a good example of why.. It's all open source, a number of different companies will gather (and print!) stuff up and send you a box of parts.

Some of these kits are complete crap. Some, for the same open source design, are very good. The difference is that some companies are trying to make the best product possible and some are trying to make the quickest profit possible. This, IMO, is one of the big public misunderstandings of open source. Saying it's the same design doesn't say anything about quality.

As for this particular seller, they're apparently new to ebay and their picture and text is ripped straight from ultimaker.com. I wish you the best of luck with them but I wouldn't go anywhere near 'em. (though if they bought a couple real UM kits then decided to sell them at a huge loss, that'd be a different story (which is still not overly credible but for different reasons)).

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There are a few dozen companies that sell these exact same parts, linking to the open source project. Should all of these companies stop selling parts just because one company has bundled all of the parts together? Is that one company solely responsible for all of the open-source development of the machines that existed prior to the Ultimaker, where is technology evolved from?

When you make something open-source, you are knowingly giving anyone access to your technology, and at least in the U.S., that is considered public domain and open for free use. If a company wants to be compensated for all of 'their' hard work, then they should not make the information freely available to the public. The 'spirit' of open source is to provide a means where anyone and everyone can build it, not to limit it to certain individuals or one company.

What is your opinion about the Stratasys and other printers where patents clearly exist that the Ultimaker is violating (at least in the U.S.)?? An open source project would be difficult to go after since afterall, it is a non-profit venture. A for-profit venture would clearly put the owners of the patent infringing device at risk for legal action.

The only action that should take place with these "knock off" companies is changing the name to something that does not imply "Ultimaker". I have seen a few that do just that, saying that their machine is "reprag" compatible, with no mention of the Ultimaker name at all - even though the box is 100% identical (minus the robot and Ultimaker logo).

Personally I think, open source is open source. So there is no right to complain about someone else capitalizing from it. But at the same time, I want to reward the people responsible for making this happen. But if the founders held all the control, I would reverse my decision. Basically competition is good, and it drives innovation.

At this point, so early in the game, I would say if you can afford it then it's better to support original Ultimaker as they are still very much a fledgling company with a lot of promise to bring us new and better things. If Ultimaker was some kind of giant monopoly, I would want the competitors to grow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with mentioning that it is an "Ultimaker based design", if you sell an Ultimaker but not call by it's name, that actually seems a little bit more dishonest.

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Now there are 7 feedbacks from the seller - all positive so far.

I must say I am tempted. I would love to buy the "original" but I do not like to pay up front (which in many EU countries is kind of borderline legal) - and then wait two+ months for shipment. PayPal had (and I dont know if they still do) - a max 20 day from payment to shipping rule. That landed a few sellers in trouble because paypal just froze their accounts.

I think it is great to support innovation - but payment up front before shipment - is a no go for me.

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Now there are 7 feedbacks from the seller - all positive so far.

I must say I am tempted. I would love to buy the "original" but I do not like to pay up front (which in many EU countries is kind of borderline legal) - and then wait two+ months for shipment. PayPal had (and I dont know if they still do) - a max 20 day from payment to shipping rule. That landed a few sellers in trouble because paypal just froze their accounts.

I think it is great to support innovation - but payment up front before shipment - is a no go for me.

Paying upfront is quite common with these kinds of projects. Is saves them the hassle of securing capital beforehand, and the hassle of getting payment afterwards.

And they are doing a lot better then OpenPandora, who took your money, and delivered 2.5-3 YEARS later. While the original estimate was 5-10 months.

But you are free to buy where you wish. However, buying from eBay is more risky then from Ultimaker, as you won't get any support from Ultimaker. They told me, the most annoying part about copy-cat sellers is that you can get support requests from people that never bought a kit from you. And suddenly you have to verify every request if it's from a real customer. Which is not something they want to be busy with, they want help people to get 3D printers.

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Now there are 7 feedbacks from the seller - all positive so far.

I must say I am tempted. I would love to buy the "original" but I do not like to pay up front (which in many EU countries is kind of borderline legal) - and then wait two+ months for shipment. PayPal had (and I dont know if they still do) - a max 20 day from payment to shipping rule. That landed a few sellers in trouble because paypal just froze their accounts.

I think it is great to support innovation - but payment up front before shipment - is a no go for me.

Paying upfront is quite common with these kinds of projects. Is saves them the hassle of securing capital beforehand, and the hassle of getting payment afterwards.

And they are doing a lot better then OpenPandora, who took your money, and delivered 2.5-3 YEARS later. While the original estimate was 5-10 months.

But you are free to buy where you wish. However, buying from eBay is more risky then from Ultimaker, as you won't get any support from Ultimaker. They told me, the most annoying part about copy-cat sellers is that you can get support requests from people that never bought a kit from you. And suddenly you have to verify every request if it's from a real customer. Which is not something they want to be busy with, they want help people to get 3D printers.

yes - but you loose all consumer protection. The only winner is Ultimaker. And since they are a company in rapid growth - with new staff, new offices etc - that is the kind of company that is ultra high risk to buy from.

The normal EU rules are an internet shop cannot charge your money BEFORE they actually SHIP the product. The only exception is if it is a CUSTOM product made especially to ONE client. As soon as you sell two of the same spec products - you are bound by the normal rules.

The seller has the option to "pre-authorise" an amount on your credit card - so they are certain to get the money when they ship.

Paypal Buyer protection ends 45 days after payment is made....

So in short - if something goes wrong - you as a buyer has ZERO protection. I would be happy to pay into an escrow account - but handing about $2000,- without any kind of insurance that the product will be delivered - I consider that gambling.

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