Is there a good reason the S3/S5 don't have magnetic, flexible build plates?

[jasonrohrer 8]

I just got home from the Ultimaker showroom in my area.

 

I was convinced enough by the demo that I saw that I came home with an S3.

 

The showroom printer.... well, it just worked beautifully, and felt like how a 3D printer should be.

 

Except for one glaring problem:  getting the print off the damn bed.

 

To see this elegant machine work its magic on a TINY demo print.... and then watch the salesman try fruitlessly prying off the print, then watch him stick the plate in the freezer for 10 minutes, then watch him try to pry it off after that....  he eventually got the print off by VIOLENTLY jabbing at it with a putty knife, and the print itself went flying across the room.

 

Oh yes, he tells me... some Nylon prints get stuck so bad that one customer pulled a piece of glass off the plate with the print.

 

This guy has been selling UM printers since 2016... he's not a novice.

 

Granted, this was a tiny demo of PVA supports, and PVA sticks worse than PLA (or so the salesman told me).  "Oh, we always use gluestick on the bed," he told me.  Apparently it didn't help.  Or if it did help, I can't imagine how much worse it could possibly be without gluestick.

 

But the whole experience was ridiculous.... especially when shopping for a $4500 printer.

 

I recently upgraded an ancient FlashForge Creator Pro with a Wham Bam flexible magnetic bed, and the thing now prints perfectly AND the prints come off gently and easily by just flexing the bed.  No more frustration.  No more violence needed.  (Though it can't print PVA supports to save its life...)

 

 

And YES, there are Wham Bam mods for the Ultimaker S3  (I told the UM salesman about them, and he was eager to learn about them).

But the question:

 

Why doesn't this $4500 printer COME with a magnetic, flex-bed in the box?

 

There must be some reason Ultimaker is avoiding the obvious solution.... maybe it reduces the quality of bed leveling?  Or... what?

 

(Or maybe this salesman has his demo printer tuned wrong for the first layer... that very well could be...)

[gr5 2,178]

1 hour ago, jasonrohrer said:

Or maybe this salesman has his demo printer tuned wrong for the first layer...

No, I don't think that's it.  It does active leveling and you can't (well there is a nice hack) turn that off on the S3.

 

I think the best solution for Nylon on glass on an S3 is magigoo.  there is a formulation just for nylon on glass.

 

So did you come home with the S3 or not?  🙂

 

If you print Nylon and PVA you should know that you need to keep both of those extremely dry.  25% humidity is too high.  Desiccant is usually not good enough (unless you have a lot and you get it down to like 16% which isn't easy with desiccant).

 

If you print PLA you probably won't mind that you don't have a flex plate.

 

To answer the flex plate question... I think they will some day.  Maybe they'll even have an upgrade for the S3.  Or you can buy 3rd party solutions right now (many do).

[jasonrohrer 8]

Yes, I came home with the S3.  It was that good, despite this one flaw.  Print quality and reliability is more important than ease of removal.  After all, if it can't print well, there's nothing worth removing from the bed!

 

I'm only printing PLA with PVA supports.  Nylon was just a scare story that I heard from the salesman.

 

But he demo'd PLA with PVA supports for me in the store (a tiny mushroom print).

 

And he could BARELY get the thing off the bed.

 

He knew this was a bad demo of the product, and he was kindof embarrassed about it.

 

I came home thinking, "I'm definitely going to find a flex bed mod for this thing."

[gr5 2,178]

I have a friend who has something like 12 S5 printers and I'm pretty sure he told me that he got custom flex plates made up.  I forget the brand but it's super well known brand and they do custom plates for any size you ask and the price is reasonable.

[jasonrohrer 8]

Well, the question still remains:

 

Why hasn't UltiMaker addressed this issue?

 

I'm hoping someone from the company can chime in here.

 

Since everything else about the printers has been designed with such careful intention, there must be a good reason for not having a flex bed.  But I'd like to hear it.

 

(It also might be good to know.... if they tested flex beds, and print quality was slightly degraded, then some of us could be aware of that, and keep two glass plates around, one with a flex for quick prints day-to-day, and another plain glass when we want the very highest print quality possible.)

[Dadkitess 19]

Well, to be fair, there is soooo much things on this machine that are weirdly designed... I only know about the 6000€ UMS5, actually, but dang my list if the ongoing failures, errors, and bad design is more than 3 pages already 😕

 

Though I don't have any print sticking to the bed issue so far haha, they all detach pretty easily after carefuly waiting for cooling. Some water helps as well for very sticky large surfaces 😉

[Travis7s 25]

I would agree it seems like it should come with a flexible plate system although I have never personally used one (I've been meaning to order one).

 

Chunks of glass coming off with the print happens a lot if you print with high temps directly on the glass, so I generally always use some kind of magigoo as it helps protect the glass. You'll find different materials will stick different amounts and I would also recommend get the Z-Offset plugin to help adjust this. Tough PLA/PLA works brilliantly with magigoo on my S5, it sticks like hell while printing but basically just comes off on its own after 5 minutes of cooldown. ABs sticks dangerously well and I find nylon to be about in the middle, just needs a little help with the spatula.

[jasonrohrer 8]

I have a tube of regular (not pro-series) Magigoo here.  I got it for the Creator Pro, but never needed to try it after I got the Wham Bam plate.

 

I know that the UltiMaker S3 comes with a glue stick in the box (which itself is kinda silly), but maybe the Magigoo is better, because of it's "magic release" property.  I'll find out!

[gr5 2,178]

You definitely want different magigoo for different materials.  Each magigoo is different.  Those guys worked really hard to get that to work and not chip the glass and have the part come off easily when it cools.  They definitely test on UM printers with glass so that's a huge benefit for UM printer owners.

 

[gr5 2,178]

Regarding Nylon - I love nylon.  PLA is 10X easier to print but sometimes I need a tougher matrial - something just a little more flexible and nylon does the trick.  Also PVA and Nylon stick very well (unfortunately printing pla on top of pva doesn't work so well - it works but barely).  But you really have to become a nylon expert meaning 100 prints before you get it right every time.  What a pain to learn but good stuff.  Also I always get the "natural" nylon and dye it if I need it colored.  Nylon soaks up dye in under a minute (you have to heat the dye to boiling temp though) and it looks gorgeous once dyed.

 

I also hate nylon, lol.  I dry it so much it is hard and brittle when I first print and I have to let it sit in the air for a week to get to its desired flexibility.  Different companies make very different nylon (e.g. lately I've been printing Taulman Bridge and is very different from Ultimaker Nylon and the bed needs to be at 100C or it just won't stick).  When I dye nylon it looks great but then it often leaks out dye-water for a day or two afterwards.

[jasonrohrer 8]

Well, my target here is lost-PLA casting, and Nylon isn't going to work for that!  🙂

 

I'm also running this printer in my house with kids and a pet, so I'm trying to avoid too many fumes.

 

PLA smells delicious!

[jasonrohrer 8]

Turns out that Wham Bam has flexible magnetic build plates specifically designed for the S3 and S5.  They have cut-outs on the corners to make room for the glass bed clips.

 

S3 here:

 

https://whambam3d.com/collections/frontpage/products/copy-of-258-x-230-kit-with-pre-installed-pex-build-surface

 

S5 here:

https://whambam3d.com/collections/355-x-275/products/copy-of-355-x-275-kit-with-pre-installed-pex-build-surface

 

I have two glass beds for my S3, so I will install the Wham Bam on one, and then test with identical prints on both, and report back with any differences that I notice.

[jasonrohrer 8]

I had a zoom call with the S-series product manager at UltiMaker today.

 

He said there's are two good reasons why they don't ship the S3 and S5 with a flex plate:

1.  UltiMaker's bed leveling procedure involves "hot probing," to ensure that filament residue on the nozzle doesn't mess up the measurements.  This hot tip, pressing into the PEX coating on the Wham Bam, can damage the coating (make a divot in it).  I also heard from the CEO of Wham Bam today, and he's aware of this potential issue with hot probing.  Obviously, there's no danger of a hot tip damaging a glass plate.

2.  UltiMaker want 99.99% "press PRINT and it always works" reliability on the full spectrum of materials that they officially support.  They've found that existing flex beds (like Wham Bam) don't work 100% perfectly with their full list of supported materials.  For example, heavily warping materials sometimes "warp" the flex bed up with the material.  Other materials have adhesion problems.  Thus, they err on the side of "printing correctly every time" and sacrifice "easy removal" on the altar of reliable, versatile printing.  Their market niche is reliability.

And I must admit that tiny-base, tall parts often get "knocked' off the Wham Bam bed for me on the FlashForge.  Thus, I'm in the habit of using a raft every time for smaller parts.  I'm guessing that the glass bed on the UltiMaker S3 will be more reliable in this regard (small parts will stick so well than they won't need a raft).


Their logic is sound to me, and I think they've made the right decision from a wide-spectrum reliability point of view.  UltiMaker doesn't want to adopt a new technique if it's not up to their reliability and versatility standards, and I respect that.  Making a flexible build plate that works perfectly is an open problem.

 

I will keep an eye out for "hot probing" problems on my Wham Bam surface.  I do plan to keep one glass plate as plain glass, so I can test both.
 

Edited December 15, 2022 by jasonrohrer

[Layerneer 3]

We have seen large parts warp as they cool if they are released too early from the build plate. This can occur with flexible build surfaces, when someone flexes to remove a part while it is still cooling down. It is less of an issue with smaller parts on a flexible build plate. However, we have found most flexible surfaces are not as good at maintaining adhesion for intricate support structures and parts with small footprints.

 

Glass has received a bad reputation due to parts not sticking, or parts sticking too well and taking chunks out of the glass. Reports of broken glass beds are usually a result of thermal shock to tempered glass, or from the extreme forces that occur when a plastic part is shrinking during the cooling process. Especially when the bed has scratches from using tools to remove parts. Those forces from the shrinking part get focussed on the scratches, which is how glass cutting works. Score the surface and apply pressure to break the glass.

 

All of the above issues with glass can be solved by using a borosilicate glass bed, and a surface coating that acts as an adhesion promoter at hot temperatures, and a release agent when the part cools. 

 

We also used Ultimaker printers with glass beds to develop a surface coating to solve those challenges. In most scenarios, you can avoid using brims and rafts. Parts release easily when cooled down.

 

The stock glass beds work well. However, we do prefer thicker borosilicate glass over the stock glass. We have observed instances where a part has not released from a bed during cool down because the actual glass warped as the cooling part shrank. The thicker glass is less likely to deform as the part shrinks, so the part releases as expected. It will hold the part until it has cooled and then release it. The borosilicate is also not prone to thermal shock, so you can pull the glass bed off the hot printer and set it on a cold granite counter top without worry of it shattering. 

[jasonrohrer 8]

I've found a few borosilicate replacement plates on the market.  Is there one that you recommend?

 

And you mentioned "thicker" plates.  How does that work, in connection with the stock UltiMaker bed clips and auto-leveling procedure?

Edited December 16, 2022 by jasonrohrer

[Layerneer 3]

Bed leveling with thicker glass works well. Unfortunately, the thicker glass requires removing the stock bed clips. We removed ours because we also test various surfaces, including magnetic ones. We put a magnetic sticker on one of our stock glass beds. This allows us to attach magnetic surfaces to that, rather than have a permanent magnetic sticker stuck directly to our aluminum bed. We can flip it over and use the glass side as well, but usually just switch to our thicker glass surface when testing prints on glass. 

 

We buy custom cut 3/16 thick NeoCeram glass from a place called One Day Glass. It measures around 5mm thick with calipers. It is a ceramic glass with low thermal expansion coefficients like borosilicate.

 

It is expensive. About $112 for a 14" x 10 15/16" piece with pencil polished edges. You can probably get one from a local glass supply store, and save on shipping cost. NeoCeram is used for fireplace applications.

 

If you go with borosilicate, then I wouldn't go less than 4mm thick. You can probably get away with the stock clips if you use 4mm borosilicate. 

 

 

[jasonrohrer 8]

So do you just use "office" binder clips to hold the thicker glass in place?

[Layerneer 3]

Binder clips work well. I do have concerns about binder clips damaging the heating element under the bed over time. I started using some of these clips because they have silicone protective boots.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08LGGBDGY

 

I put 6 to 8 of them. You won't be able to put any in the back, because the plastic back cover gets in the way, so I put 6 to 8 clips around the bed.

 

For your situation, it would be perfectly fine to start off with your stock glass, or a 4mm boro bed, using your stock clips, and some adhesion/release formula. Then, if it doesn't meet your needs you could remove the stock bed clips and add modified surfaces.

[jasonrohrer 8]

My first print on my S3 was a 3D Benchy.  I was told by UltiMaker that "if I use UltiMaker PLA, I don't need to use any glue."

 

This was the Tough Black PLA that came with the printer, left nozzle, AA 0.4mm core.  Default settings in the latest version of Cura for this setup (which is FINE, with a brim for adhesion).

 

And sure enough, it was very difficult to get the print off the bed!  I let it cool, but it wouldn't come off.  Then I put it in the freezer for 10 minutes, and it still wouldn't come off.  I eventually chiseled it off with a plastic scraper, which required some violence.

 

Meanwhile, the default settings on the FlashForge CreatorPro included a raft for Benchy.  With the Wham Bam bed on the CreatorPro, the print popped off in a snap.  But it was impossible to get the raft removed entirely from the bottom of the print (this varies from print-to-print on the CreatorPro.... sometimes the raft comes off easily).

 

On the other hand, the brim on the S3 left some jagged edges after it broke off the bottom of Benchy.

 

And the print quality was DRAMATICALLY better on the S3.  The contrast is pretty stark.  Though the default settings on the S3 are much finer (0.1 vs 0.18 layer height).  But there was distortion all over the place on the CreatorPro Benchy.  Though the CreatorPro finished the print 2x faster.  The only artifact on the S3 Benchy was ringing on the bow portals and around the cabin doorway.

 

I will have to run an apples-to-apples comparison where I tweak the CreatorPro settings until it takes the same amount of time as the S3.

 

Next step is Magigoo, of course.

 

BUT, to see the advantages of good adhesion, I did one more experiment:

 

I printed a 20mm tall cylinder with a 4mm diameter base and 45 degree "arms" sticking off the top, like a skinny letter "Y".  I turned off skirts on the S3 and disabled the raft on the CreatorPro.

 

And this print was simply impossible on the CreatorPro with the Wham Bam bed.  The little "disk" for the bottom layer didn't stick at all, and just moved with the nozzle.

 

But it worked FINE on the S3.  In fact, I was able to print some tall towers with even smaller bases (2mm, 1mm), and they adhered fine (though the skinnier ones started "wiggling" a lot as they got taller, getting distorted, and eventually getting knocked off the glass bed).

 

That's a pretty good demo of where the S3 beats the competition, I think.  It can print a tall, skinny "Y" with no special adhesion add-ons.  Of course, for such a tiny base, the part pops right off after cooling when you pull on it.  I will try this with Magigoo today and see if that makes adhesion for tiny parts less reliable.

 

 

Not to derail the thread too much....  but care to state the case about why Layerneer is better than Magigoo?

[gr5 2,178]

Warning - if you don't use glue stick or any other type of surface prep - it's that much more important to keep the surface free of oils that can come from you hands so you should clean the glass regularly.  Personally, rather than magigoo (which is better), I use a mixture of elmers wood glue to water (about 20 parts water to 1 part glue - ratio is not critical) and brush it on and heat the bed so it dries faster.  alternatively use the included glue stick and spread with a wet tissue if you need more stick and don't spread it around with wet tissue if you want it to release better.

[Super_paulie 12]

Getting the print off the bed is the least of your worries, let me tell you. My S5 with material station gives me daily issues and somewhat crazy design and software choices forced upon you. Still good though, but it generates daily frustrations.

[Layerneer 3]

I won't clutter the thread regarding adhesion solutions.

 

With both solutions, you should be able to print the benchy without a brim, and you should be able to remove the part with out tools. Usually they come off by themselves, and the bottom comes out glass smooth.

 

I just replaced some belts on an older S5 and printed a benchy for a shake down run. Removed it with no force, and the bottom is flawless. No need to cut away brim.

 

One other reason to stick with glass is that the XY calibration routine requires you to print a pattern on the surface of the glass. Then, you place the glass over the calibration sheet. You have to see through the bed to do this, so glass is your only option here. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Layerneer

[jasonrohrer 8]

Yes, I just printed some stuff with Magigoo on the S3 glass bed, and it was wonderful experience.  The parts indeed came right off in my hand, with no tools, after cooling down.

 

I did a Benchy myself, and it looks just like that on the bottom.  The print quality is really stellar (and like night-and-day compared to the CreatorPro, even when printing at the same speed---1 hour and 9 minutes for Benchy on both).

 

Also, the "tall thin Y" shape, with a tiny base, adhered and printed just fine with Magigoo, and also came off very easily when done.

 

I guess my days of rafts and brims are over!

 

I'm curious about a really wide-based piece with Magigoo.  Like what if the base covers the whole bed?  I'll have to try it.

 

Anyway, I'm now 100% sold on the UltiMaker design philosophy, and I think they made the right choice with the glass bed.

Edited December 18, 2022 by jasonrohrer

[gr5 2,178]

The hardest thing to print is like a long pencil shape that goes from one end to the other end of the bed.  The upper layers pull hard and lift the part at the extreme ends and once off the glass it continues towards the center for a while.

 

So on a part like that (basically any long part) you want to add brim.  You can do the brim in cad.  And you can do it just on the ends if you want.

 

If you want to try it without brim it helps a lot to round the corners quite a bit so the lifting forces are distributed a bit.  It also helps to be above the softening temp of the material (PLA softens at 52C so you want 60C bed temp, ABS softens at 99C so you want 110C bed temp  Nylon doesn't have a softening temp but it gets more flexible and for tough prints I like 100C bed temp for nylon (if there is no PVA involved).