UMS5: Underextrusion problems

[LJustusBuhler 0]

Hello everyone, 

 

I again need help with my UMS5. This machine causes nothing but problems for weeks. Now the biggest one is underextrusion

Things I checked

-Cura Settings are Ultimakers recommended Engineering Settings

-Flow tower looks the same at every level

-Printcores are new and clean

-Feeder tension is right and the feeder wheels are clean

-Bowden tube is clean

-No scipping or clicking noice

 

 

 

So the next thing I would check are the E-Steps. Is there a way to calibrate those? Is it possible to see the current E-Step value?

 

Thanks in advance

 

So the next thing I would check are the E-Steps. Is there a way to calibrate those? Is it possible to see the current E-Step value?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

[matt_dt3d 1]

There is no way to edit the E-Step values on the Ultimaker s5, they are hard-coded.

 

Have you tried re-seating your Bowden tubes, and alternatively have you tried printing hotter? What filament are you using?

[gr5 2,265]

You can indeed change the esteps/mm but it changes it for both extruders.

 

Also you should never have to adjust those.  You can test the extruder (extrude exactly 50mm and then measure how far the filament moves) but esteps shouldn't need adjusting.

 

UNDEREXTRUSION

 

It looks fine.  The bottom layer is underextruded but maybe leveling had a bit of something on the tip of the nozzle and levelled slightly high and that should only affect the bottom layer.

 

Also the top of those bridges are underextruded but that's not too surprising for above bridges.  What about a "normal" print.  Are normal prints also underextruded?  There are many possible causes but I want to see that it's underextruding something other than these special cases (just above bridging and bottom layer).

 

 

[LJustusBuhler 0]

Hi,

 

The Bowden tubes are good and clean. The underextrusion happens on every print on the top and bottom layer. I switched back to using Ultimaker black PLA and the issue remains the same. I fiddled around with different slicer versions which did not help. I checked every moving component and everything seems fine. My collegues tested if it works for them and they have the same issues. 

 

[gr5 2,265]

Yeah that looks like underextrusion.  This is rare on the S5 - it just works so damn well as far as underextrusion is concerned.

 

Here are a few things to check:

1) Double check that it is really PLA.  Sometimes people accidentally think it's PLA but it's PETG, ABS, or something else that needs a higher temp.

 

2) Did you mess with print settings? particularly did you:

increase line width (check the automated line widths as well to see if they are larger than nozzle size)

decrease temperature

increase print speed

change flow rate

change line width percent

 

3) Front fan - if the front fan stops spinning (not the side 2 fans) you get underextrusion.  Sometimes severe.  Do the MOVE command for the filament which heats up the core and as it gets above around 60C flip open the front door and make sure the fan spins.

 

4) extrusion test - using the MOVE command, once it is up to temp, make a kink in the extruded filament and then see how quickly you can get that to the bed.  On the S5 I believe it's around 10 seconds when things are working great.  20 seconds is probably too slow.

 

5) Feeder test.  While in the MOVE command, hold the up button until you see the end of the filament in the bowden.  now hit the down arrow once every few seconds and reach behind the printer and pull down hard on the filament.  The S5 can extrude with about 15 pounds (about 7kg) of force.  That's a lot.  Try to get it to slip (I can't from the front - not strong enough).  If you get it to slip, pick up some weights and estimate the pulling force of the printer.  While back there make sure the tension setting is at half way point.  This should tell you if the problem is feeder versus print core.

 

6) Core test.  Swap with the other AA 0.4 print core.  Each S5 comes with 2. Do the test #4 above to see if it's any different.

 

7) Try a different filament.  Do test #4 above.

 

 

[LJustusBuhler 0]

Hi. Thank you for your answer. So I checked these points:

1) Yes it is really PLA

 

2) The settings are the default engineering settings. I even did a clean new installation of cura just to be safe and checked with a collegue if it the settings are the same. Also got confirmation from ultimaker support

 

3) Front fan is new (orientated in the right way) and is working as intended

 

4) trying to extrude filament via the move command leads to grinding after a few seconds (prime blob works fine and extrusion when changing filament also looks right). I think it is because of the speed at which the filament is moved but the ultimaker support did not give me an answer on this issue. (They always ignore questions)

Is there another test I can do? Maybe check the extruders with the bowden tube removed?

 

5) I did not check with weights but I could not stop the feeder from pushing filament with force 

 

6)tried different cores: 2 Ultimaker AA0.4 and one Solex A0.25 

 

7) tried four different spools of PLA but not step 4

[Torgeir 280]

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

as, your printer have been fully "investigated", I'll think it's time to look at your Cura version the project file and related gcode file. The firmware in use on your printer might also be of interest here.

 

If anything during printer investigation -haven't been overlooked, the above must play in here..

 

Thanks

Torgeir

 

 

 

[Torgeir 280]

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

After sending this last question, I come to think this; what if you install two AA0.4 cores and then try to print the cube with core 1 (the right core). If it print ok there, the failure must be on the left side..

 

Torgeir

[gr5 2,265]

cura

 

You can send us your "project" file that has the cube please.  So make sure you have the settings as you had it and load the cube into cura that you used and then in Cura do "file" "save project" and post that file.  I doubt it's cura but possibly.  Also while in cura get the version.

 

"step 4".  So grinding, slipping is expected if you hold down the down arrow.  You need to tap it in a regular rythm and speed up or slow down until you get roughly maximum extrusion.  maybe 1 tap per second?  Maybe 2?  Not sure.  Once you are roughly close to max speed, with the other hand grab the extruded filament and pull sideways and the angle should "freeze" solid within a second and then see how many seconds it takes to get the bend down to the glass.  I'll do the same test.  Memory says around 10 seconds.  I do sometimes count the seconds but I have huge variability in variables (often I'm testing a um2go, and my S5 rarely prints PLA).  I'll do the test with AA 0.4 core.  An old one.

 

 

[Dustin 175]

Im going to add some comments here about some things that were very much missed it appears.

• The tower print appears to predate a update to UltiMaker Cura. If I recall correctly the post processing was broken at that time pending the version of UltiMaker Cura used. You don't mention this anywhere in the discussion that I can see. So if you did use the version that was impacted by that bug, your tower test is invalid because it printed the whole thing at the same settings (initial settings). I would re-run it with the latest version of UltiMaker Cura.
• Ensure your print cores are clean - Dirty print cores will impact your flow rate.
  Guide here: https://support.makerbot.com/s/article/1667411136256
• If your having under extrusion issues with UltiMaker branded material while selecting profiles in UltiMaker Cura that match those materials (Example: not selecting Generic PLA profile for printing Tough PLA, etc.. ) AND you have completed the print core cleaning processes and get clean pulls from that result. This would point to possible issues with the front fan not spinning to proper speeds (or is dirty) or you have issues with your print core(s).. Alternatively there could be issues with your print head cable, though that would usually throw error's if there is. 
• Additional reminder: Remember to disable post processing scripts and settings when doing test prints like the calibration cube etc.. Its unfortunately common for this to get missed and the test print ends up printing with settings applied by the post processor which is overriding the template settings. 

 

[gr5 2,265]

It took me 17 seconds.  This is on a heavily used and old AA 0.4.  This is at 200C.  At 220C it was closer to 12 seconds.

[LJustusBuhler 0]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:24 PM, Torgeir said:

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

as, your printer have been fully "investigated", I'll think it's time to look at your Cura version the project file and related gcode file. The firmware in use on your printer might also be of interest here.

 

If anything during printer investigation -haven't been overlooked, the above must play in here..

 

Thanks

Torgeir

 

 

 

Hi @Torgeir

 

Sorry for the late response.

 

-My firmware is the 8.2.0 for the R1 (double checked and yes that is the right one)

-Cura is at version 5.3.1 (also tested 4.8 and a 5.2.X version)

 

A project file can be found attached

 

Thanks 

LJ

 

UMS5_Part1.3mf

[LJustusBuhler 0]

On 5/23/2023 at 4:38 PM, Torgeir said:

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

After sending this last question, I come to think this; what if you install two AA0.4 cores and then try to print the cube with core 1 (the right core). If it print ok there, the failure must be on the left side..

 

Torgeir

Hi @Torgeir

 

I tried diffrent printcores in different configurations and it did not change. the problem is independent from which printcore and printcore slot is used.

 

Thanks

LJ

 

[LJustusBuhler 0]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:34 PM, gr5 said:

cura

 

You can send us your "project" file that has the cube please.  So make sure you have the settings as you had it and load the cube into cura that you used and then in Cura do "file" "save project" and post that file.  I doubt it's cura but possibly.  Also while in cura get the version.

 

"step 4".  So grinding, slipping is expected if you hold down the down arrow.  You need to tap it in a regular rythm and speed up or slow down until you get roughly maximum extrusion.  maybe 1 tap per second?  Maybe 2?  Not sure.  Once you are roughly close to max speed, with the other hand grab the extruded filament and pull sideways and the angle should "freeze" solid within a second and then see how many seconds it takes to get the bend down to the glass.  I'll do the same test.  Memory says around 10 seconds.  I do sometimes count the seconds but I have huge variability in variables (often I'm testing a um2go, and my S5 rarely prints PLA).  I'll do the test with AA 0.4 core.  An old one.

 

 

Hi @gr5

 

Thank you! I will try it ASAP

 

Thanks

 

LJ

[LJustusBuhler 0]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:46 PM, Dustin said:

Im going to add some comments here about some things that were very much missed it appears.

• The tower print appears to predate a update to UltiMaker Cura. If I recall correctly the post processing was broken at that time pending the version of UltiMaker Cura used. You don't mention this anywhere in the discussion that I can see. So if you did use the version that was impacted by that bug, your tower test is invalid because it printed the whole thing at the same settings (initial settings). I would re-run it with the latest version of UltiMaker Cura.
• Ensure your print cores are clean - Dirty print cores will impact your flow rate.
  Guide here: https://support.makerbot.com/s/article/1667411136256
• If your having under extrusion issues with UltiMaker branded material while selecting profiles in UltiMaker Cura that match those materials (Example: not selecting Generic PLA profile for printing Tough PLA, etc.. ) AND you have completed the print core cleaning processes and get clean pulls from that result. This would point to possible issues with the front fan not spinning to proper speeds (or is dirty) or you have issues with your print core(s).. Alternatively there could be issues with your print head cable, though that would usually throw error's if there is. 
• Additional reminder: Remember to disable post processing scripts and settings when doing test prints like the calibration cube etc.. Its unfortunately common for this to get missed and the test print ends up printing with settings applied by the post processor which is overriding the template settings. 

 

Hi @Dustin

 

Thanks for your comment. I did not know that the post processing was broken for a time so that is really good to know. Unfortunately the problem still remained with other prints.

 

The printcores were cleaned and even new printcores were tested, so I do not think that this is the issue

 

The profiles are set up correctly (double checked that today) and the front fan is spinning and orientated in the right way. 

 

Even though I have no errors other than an occasional bedleveling error (mostly due to residue on the nozzle or plate). I was told by a third party technician that he heard of them failing from time to time. Can this really be the issue because the cable seemed fine to me?

 

Thanks

 

LJ

 

 

[gr5 2,265]

Did you do my extrusion test?  How many seconds?  What temp and material did you run the test at?

[BrettSneider1 0]

Are you actually getting the er65 error or are you just suggesting under extrusion is happening due to the way your print looks. To me those prints dont look horrible. Maybe try ironing top layer. Also do try to bring your model into 3D builder, there may be issues with your mesh.

 

Usually under extrusion occurs because the print core needs to be cleaned. Sounds like you already checked that

[Torgeir 280]

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

After looking more closely to your print objects and the engineering setting used, it looks like the line space and line width

is some too big for a 0.4 mm nozzle. I'll think if you reduce them from 1.2 mm to 0.8 mm will make your object look much better.

 

Thanks

Torgeir

 

 

[LJustusBuhler 0]

12 hours ago, gr5 said:

Did you do my extrusion test?  How many seconds?  What temp and material did you run the test at?

Hi I was able to do the test today. It was 17 seconds at 200°C using PLA

 

[LJustusBuhler 0]

10 hours ago, BrettSneider1 said:

Are you actually getting the er65 error or are you just suggesting under extrusion is happening due to the way your print looks. To me those prints dont look horrible. Maybe try ironing top layer. Also do try to bring your model into 3D builder, there may be issues with your mesh.

 

Usually under extrusion occurs because the print core needs to be cleaned. Sounds like you already checked that

Hi

 

I do not get error 65 and the mesh was okay. Also the print cores are clean. So this is very odd to me

 

Thanks 

Leon

[LJustusBuhler 0]

9 hours ago, Torgeir said:

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

After looking more closely to your print objects and the engineering setting used, it looks like the line space and line width

is some too big for a 0.4 mm nozzle. I'll think if you reduce them from 1.2 mm to 0.8 mm will make your object look much better.

 

Thanks

Torgeir

 

 

Hi @Torgeir

 

I was looking at my profile again and every linewidth was set to the nozzle size: 0.4 for 0.4 nozzle and 0.25 for 0.25 nozzle

 

The only setting I could find that was set to 1.2 is the wall thickness

 

Thanks

 

LJ

[Torgeir 280]

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

Well, this setting is found under the menu "Top/Bottom".

You need to select "view all" in preference menu "Settings".

This new Cura version have the possibility to adjust the nozzle width and the spacing as well.

Here are a picture of it with your settings.

 

 

Hope this help.

 

Thanks

Torgeir

 

Edit:

It is the skin expand setting I'm thinking about, but ofc. the feeder play an important role in here as you're much into already.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Torgeir
More info.

[LJustusBuhler 0]

4 hours ago, Torgeir said:

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

Well, this setting is found under the menu "Top/Bottom".

You need to select "view all" in preference menu "Settings".

This new Cura version have the possibility to adjust the nozzle width and the spacing as well.

Here are a picture of it with your settings.

 

 

Hope this help.

 

Thanks

Torgeir

 

Edit:

It is the skin expand setting I'm thinking about, but ofc. the feeder play an important role in here as you're much into already.

Hi @Torgeir

 

I tried changing the values and got following result:

The top surface looks way better, but is disconnected from the walls. Do you have an idea how to fix this?

 

Thanks

 

LJ

[Torgeir 280]

Hi @LJustusBuhler,

 

I've been reading through all the posting about this printer.

It's a printer been using for engineering and probably having a high number of printing hours?

All started with a printer that could not feed filament well -and had a lot of grinding into the filament.

So, you was the one selected to fix this..

Well, there is one thing that's "normally" never happen, -both of the cores do not feed at same time..

Yes, the front fan can make this happen and are the first one candidate, unless...

Imaging you as an engineer have a project to be printed within a short time frame.

Starting a print, discovering that the primary core do not feed properly. Then, what do you do.

Yes reconfigure the print file "gcode" to use the right core..

The printer might be in business for some more time, but awaiting more problem to come, if not fixed.

 

You mention the feeder stepper "motor", this is a last thing that's fail in a 3D printer, but the hubbed wheel is a candidate that's wearing "much" when printing abrasive filament. So check those wheels to be sharp in the filament track as well.

 

Another issue are using same print core for a number of different filament. Here stuff from the various filament build up and become almost impossible to clean out. This is now a core with restricted flow..

 

If you have filaments preferred for some type of production, use cores that's only to be printed with this filament.

 

Good Luck.

 

Thanks

Torgeir

[gr5 2,265]

top/bottom thickness has nothing to do with line width.  You can put "line width" in the search box in settings and it doesn't matter if you have settings visible or not, they will show up.  All of them were at 0.4 in the original project file.

 

@Torgeir I think you are confusing top/bottom thickness with top/bottom line width (I can't tell in your screen shot as things are blurry).  Torgeir is an expert and posts lots of great advice but in this (first ever?) case I think he was wrong.  top/bottom thickness tells cura how many layers on the top of your cube to make above the infill (and bottom of cube).  1.2mm / 0.15 layer height means 8 layers.  Changing this to 0.4 would change it to I think 2 layers which would not be enough.

 

"disconnected walls" is very common and is a clear example of underextrusion.  You still have underextrusion.  I don't know why.  Your temp (200) and speed (30) seems reasonable.