weird surface

[rubin 1]

hello everyone

i've bought my ultimaker2 extended about 3 months ago .. and i've learnt alot ..

but i'm still having a hard time in getting the finish i see all around .. i donno what's the real problem.. i hope you can help me with this..

and there's another issue with faces being shifted a little at a certain point almost every time ..

check out the images to make things more clear:

most of the flat faces have this weird finish.. while in other prints its super smooth! (like in the robot image)

shifting!

the strange thing about the shiftings that they are outwards from all sides .. i would've guessed an un-tightened pulley if it was outwards at one side and inward at the opposite side ..

another thing is the warping at the corners ..

i heat up the bed for 60 degrees .. and i print colorfab PLA .. i also make a cold pull every time i change the material and make sure the nozzle is super clean .. i also tighten the screws from time to time

so .. what do you guys think?

Edited December 13, 2015 by Guest

[cloakfiend 995]

The corners can be solved by using better glue, if your printing 0.2 then ive also had issues but never solved them. I only really print at 0.06 really due to many reasons. Actually shifting outwards is weird and cant offer any guidance other than look at the model in a 3d program, as if its not doing it all the time on all models, its not the printer.

[rubin 1]

The corners can be solved by using better glue, if your printing 0.2 then ive also had issues but never solved them. I only really print at 0.06 really due to many reasons. Actually shifting outwards is weird and cant offer any guidance other than look at the model in a 3d program, as if its not doing it all the time on all models, its not the printer.

 

thnx for the reply

do i really need any glue for printing PLA ? wont the heated bed be enough?

i was wondering if raising the bed temperature has any effect on that?

the shiftings are not from the model for sure .. actually it's a simple vertical wall "as i do architectural models mostly"

the problem with printing with .06 is it takes forever!

this model took 40 hours on .2 layer .. you would imagine how long will it take on .06 !

and the thing is i see other prints printed at 0.2 mm with nice looking face ..

anyway.. thnx again

[Labern 774]

Sometime printing with no glue is ok but for big flat surfaces using glue can be better.

What cad software are you using?

Nozzle temp and print speed?

[peggyb 169]

A while ago I came across this video:

The holes he did in his model are in a vertical wall, but if you make them in the bottom near the corners, I guess it would work in the same way. Off course this is only suitable for models/buildings were the bottom is solid.

An other way is to draw discs on the corners, like Mickey Mouse ears, and cut them off later.

And use a large brim helps, did you use this? The brim can be taped down with ducktape or blue tape as an extra security.

[cloakfiend 995]

Its infill that is wasting your time, just print the walls separately flat and construct it afterwards. I know its a bit more hassle, but it will look better and you will not just waste 48hrs if one part fails. Just because you model something one way doesnt mean it will print that way, even though i never had these weird issues. Just slice it in appropriate places and stick it together. You will save a ton of time. Not that many things with detail can be printed all at once, for many reasons.

[Labern 774]

It could be good to print it in multiple parts but it would be still good for him to find the cause of his issues as it shouldn't happen.

[cloakfiend 995]

Fair enough but white is a pain to print with. Stay away from that colour. If i want something white, i just spray it. I also use colorfabb.

[gr5 2,167]

You have two problems. Lifting corners, irregular walls. The lifting corners problem is the easiest by far to deal with and you asked about higher temps than 60C...

lifting corners, curling corners, part sticking to glass

1) Make sure the glass is clean if you haven't cleaned it for a few weeks. You want a very thin coat of PVA glue which is found in hairspray, glue stick, wood glue. If you use glue stick or wood glue you need to dilute it with water - about 5 to 10 parts water to 1 part glue. So for example if you use glue stick, apply only to the outer edge of your model outline then add a tablespoon of water and spread with a tissue such that you thin it so much you can't see it anymore. wood glue is better. hairspray doesn't need to be diluted. When it dries it should be invisible. This glue works well for most plastics.

2) Heat the bed. This helps the plastic fill in completely (no air pockets) so you have better contact with the glass. For PLA any temp above 40C is safe. I often print at 60C bed.

3) heat the bed (didn't I already say that?). Keeping the bottom layers above the glass temp of the material makes it so the bottom layers can flex a bit (very very tiny amount) and relieve the tension/stress. For PLA 60C is better than 50C. 70C is even better but then you get other "warping" like issues at the corners where they move inward but if you are desperate it's worth it. For ABS you want 110C (100C is good enough).

4) rounded corners - having square corners puts all the lifting force on a tiny spot. Rounding the corner spreads the force out more. This is optional if you use brim.

5) Brim - this is the most important of all. Turn on the brim feature in cura and do 10 passes of brim. This is awesome.

6) Squish - make sure the bottom layer is squishing onto the glass with no gaps in the brim. The first trace going down should be flat like a pancake, not rounded like string. don't run the leveling procedure if it is off, just turn the 3 screws the same amount while it is printing the skirt or brim. Counter clockwise from below gets the bed closer to the nozzle. Don't panic, take a breath, think about which way to move the glass, think about how the screw works, then twist. This may take 30 seconds but it's worth it to not rush it. You can always restart the print.

If you do all this you will then ask me "how the hell do I get my part off the glass?". Well first let it cool completely. Or even put it in the freezer. Then use a sharp putty knife under a corner and it should pop off.

[gr5 2,167]

Your other problem is that your Z axis isn't moving a consistent amount. Sometimes the Z axis moves more than .2mm but the printer doesn't know this so it's putting the right amount of filament for a .2mm movement which isn't enough and so you get a slightly underextruded layer. Then sometimes the Z axis moves too little - you have overextrusion and the layer "sticks out" (I think that's how you put it).

This problem is more difficult to fix. Do you have a UMO or a UM2? Or some other printer? Please update your profile to specify. Assuming you have a metal bed like on the UM2 or the UMO with heated bed, you want to take that all apart and clean the bearings. The most common problem is with the bearings. Several people have posted problems that were fixed when they cleaned the bearings - WD40 makes a great cleaner but make sure it's all gone before you assemble it back together.

Before you do any of this cut the power and move the bed up and down feeling for stuck spots. You have to grab the bed near the back of the printer and lift with enough force to lift the printer off the table.

The bearings shouldn't need any oil or grease but if you do add some, add very little as it can gunk up the ball bearings which is what you need to be cleaning.

The Z screw should be greased (not oiled).

[rubin 1]

Sometime printing with no glue is ok but for big flat surfaces using glue can be better.

What cad software are you using?

Nozzle temp and print speed?

 

i use many software .. but usually sketchup then cura of course

the nozzle temp is 210 with speed 40 mm/sec

[rubin 1]

A while ago I came across this video:

The holes he did in his model are in a vertical wall, but if you make them in the bottom near the corners, I guess it would work in the same way. Off course this is only suitable for models/buildings were the bottom is solid.

An other way is to draw discs on the corners, like Mickey Mouse ears, and cut them off later.

And use a large brim helps, did you use this? The brim can be taped down with ducktape or blue tape as an extra security.

 

the video is not working.. could you resend it please?

[peggyb 169]

[Labern 774]

Sketchup is actually really bad for 3d printing. Is usable but you need to make sure there are no stray lines or non manifold items.

Make sure you always view your models in x-ray mode to make sure there are no red areas in cura.

Cleanup3 and solid inspector plug-ins are a must for Sketchup to get rid of any errors. Could explain your wall issues.

[rubin 1]

Its infill that is wasting your time, just print the walls separately flat and construct it afterwards. I know its a bit more hassle, but it will look better and you will not just waste 48hrs if one part fails. Just because you model something one way doesnt mean it will print that way, even though i never had these weird issues. Just slice it in appropriate places and stick it together. You will save a ton of time. Not that many things with detail can be printed all at once, for many reasons.

 

it's actually hollow from the inside..besides.. assembling the different walls together will raise many other issues like not having perfect intersections and many weakness points in the model .. and it's actually much more complex than it seems .. it would be ok if it's just a cube with four walls .. but that's for sure not the regular case in architecture..

[cloakfiend 995]

i hear you, but i'm still pretty certain you can slice that model. arch viz stuff tends to lend itself quite well to that. you just need to figure out where. its not always the obvious place.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest

[rubin 1]

You have two problems.  Lifting corners, irregular walls.  The lifting corners problem is the easiest by far to deal with and you asked about higher temps than 60C...

lifting corners, curling corners, part sticking to glass

1) Make sure the glass is clean if you haven't cleaned it for a few weeks.  You want a very thin coat of PVA glue which is found in hairspray, glue stick, wood glue.  If you use glue stick or wood glue you need to dilute it with water - about 5 to 10 parts water to 1 part glue.  So for example if you use glue stick, apply only to the outer edge of your model outline then add a tablespoon of water and spread with a tissue such that you thin it so much you can't see it anymore.  wood glue is better.  hairspray doesn't need to be diluted.  When it dries it should be invisible.  This glue works well for most plastics.

2) Heat the bed.  This helps the plastic fill in completely (no air pockets) so you have better contact with the glass.  For PLA any temp above 40C is safe.  I often print at 60C bed.

3) heat the bed (didn't I already say that?).  Keeping the bottom layers above the glass temp of the material makes it so the bottom layers can flex a bit (very very tiny amount) and relieve the tension/stress.  For PLA 60C is better than 50C.  70C is even better but then you get other "warping" like issues at the corners where they move inward but if you are desperate it's worth it.  For ABS you want 110C (100C is good enough).

4) rounded corners - having square corners puts all the lifting force on a tiny spot.  Rounding the corner spreads the force out more.  This is optional if you use brim.

5) Brim - this is the most important of all.  Turn on the brim feature in cura and do 10 passes of brim.  This is awesome.

6) Squish - make sure the bottom layer is squishing onto the glass with no gaps in the brim.  The first trace going down should be flat like a pancake, not rounded like string.  don't run the leveling procedure if it is off, just turn the 3 screws the same amount while it is printing the skirt or brim.  Counter clockwise from below gets the bed closer to the nozzle.  Don't panic, take a breath, think about which way to move the glass, think about how the screw works, then twist.  This may take 30 seconds but it's worth it to not rush it.  You can always restart the print.

If you do all this you will then ask me "how the hell do I get my part off the glass?".  Well first let it cool completely.  Or even put it in the freezer.  Then use a sharp putty knife under a corner and it should pop off.

 

Wow.. this post should be pinned or highlighted .. this is probably the best answer for any bed-adhesion issues

I'm really amazed of your devotion .. you put everything you have .. and spend so much time on helping everyone here .. thnx alot ..

[rubin 1]

Your other problem is that your Z axis isn't moving a consistent amount.  Sometimes the Z axis moves more than .2mm but the printer doesn't know this so it's putting the right amount of filament for a .2mm movement which isn't enough and so you get a slightly underextruded layer.  Then sometimes the Z axis moves too little - you have overextrusion and the layer "sticks out" (I think that's how you put it).

This problem is more difficult to fix.  Do you have a UMO or a UM2?  Or some other printer?  Please update your profile to specify.  Assuming you have a metal bed like on the UM2 or the UMO with heated bed, you want to take that all apart and clean the bearings.  The most common problem is with the bearings.  Several people have posted problems that were fixed when they cleaned the bearings - WD40 makes a great cleaner but make sure it's all gone before you assemble it back together.

Before you do any of this cut the power and move the bed up and down feeling for stuck spots.  You have to grab the bed near the back of the printer and lift with enough force to lift the printer off the table.

The bearings shouldn't need any oil or grease but if you do add some, add very little as it can gunk up the ball bearings which is what you need to be cleaning.

The Z screw should be greased (not oiled).

 

What you say actually makes sense!

I'll try to look into it

Do you have an visual guide for this?

It would be great and much safer for me!

[yellowshark 153]

As a reference point the last architectural job I did was for a two story very modern apartment block containing four apartments at a scale of 1:100. It certainly was not four walls with a roof. It had a total print time, at .200 layer depth, of about 40 hours, in white. The floor area was around 300cm * 250cm, so just fitted onto my bed.

At that size bed temp. is not enough to ensure a perfect 1st layer and corner adhesion, straight or curved. Personally I use extra strength hairspray but choice from a number of good adhesives is a personal thing.

I too have had trouble with both colorFabb and Faberdashery "whites" but I have found Faberdashery Arctic White to be flawless.

I decided to cut up the model into a number of pieces as I did not want to get 80% of the way through a 40 hour print and then have a failure plus there were several aspects to the architecture where I was not sure if they would print OK if I printed them in the orientation dictated by a single print. Big mistake, there was no way I could get a satisfactory gluing together of about ten pieces making up the walls. So I had to redo it, another 40 hours, having remodelled into three pieces.

George's comments are all spot on, he knows his stuff. The only thing I would say is that for a surface area close to the size of the bed I use 65c and have gone to 70c. If you have that size and have not done it before, then I would also add - do not forget that your bed temp. sensor is probably measuring the bed, not the glass plate, so you need to check it with a laser thermometer. Also it takes longer for the perimeter areas to get up to the same temp. as the central area of the bed, of course depending on where the sensor is measuring, so you need to check this. If the perimeter areas are 50 - 55 when you start then that large surface make not stick.

[rubin 1]

As a reference point the last architectural job I did was for a two story very modern apartment block containing four apartments at a scale of 1:100. It certainly was not four walls with a roof. It had a total print time, at .200 layer depth, of about 40 hours, in white. The floor area was around 300cm * 250cm, so just fitted onto my bed.

At that size bed temp. is not enough to ensure a perfect 1st layer and corner adhesion, straight or curved. Personally I use extra strength hairspray but choice from a number of good adhesives is a personal thing.

I too have had trouble with both colorFabb and Faberdashery "whites" but I have found Faberdashery Arctic White to be flawless.

I decided to cut up the model into a number of pieces as I did not want to get 80% of the way through a 40 hour print and then have a failure plus there were several aspects to the architecture where I was not sure if they would print OK if I printed them in the orientation dictated by a single print. Big mistake, there was no way I could get a satisfactory gluing together of about ten pieces making up the walls. So I had to redo it, another 40 hours, having remodelled into three pieces.

George's comments are all spot on, he knows his stuff. The only thing I would say is that for a surface area close to the size of the bed I use 65c and have gone to 70c. If you have that size and have not done it before, then I would also add - do not forget that your bed temp. sensor is probably measuring the bed, not the glass plate, so you need to check it with a laser thermometer. Also it takes longer for the perimeter areas to get up to the same temp. as the central area of the bed, of course depending on where the sensor is measuring, so you need to check this. If the perimeter areas are 50 - 55 when you start then that large surface make not stick.

 

i would love to see what happened with you in photos if that's not too much to ask ..

amazing reply .. you really know what you do ..

i think we should make a corner in this forum for architectural work .. as it has many different aspects of regular printing ..

thnx again for you time and reply

[madzteir 6]

 

As a reference point the last architectural job I did was for a two story very modern apartment block containing four apartments at a scale of 1:100. It certainly was not four walls with a roof. It had a total print time, at .200 layer depth, of about 40 hours, in white. The floor area was around 300cm * 250cm, so just fitted onto my bed.

At that size bed temp. is not enough to ensure a perfect 1st layer and corner adhesion, straight or curved. Personally I use extra strength hairspray but choice from a number of good adhesives is a personal thing.

I too have had trouble with both colorFabb and Faberdashery "whites" but I have found Faberdashery Arctic White to be flawless.

I decided to cut up the model into a number of pieces as I did not want to get 80% of the way through a 40 hour print and then have a failure plus there were several aspects to the architecture where I was not sure if they would print OK if I printed them in the orientation dictated by a single print. Big mistake, there was no way I could get a satisfactory gluing together of about ten pieces making up the walls. So I had to redo it, another 40 hours, having remodelled into three pieces.

George's comments are all spot on, he knows his stuff. The only thing I would say is that for a surface area close to the size of the bed I use 65c and have gone to 70c. If you have that size and have not done it before, then I would also add - do not forget that your bed temp. sensor is probably measuring the bed, not the glass plate, so you need to check it with a laser thermometer. Also it takes longer for the perimeter areas to get up to the same temp. as the central area of the bed, of course depending on where the sensor is measuring, so you need to check this. If the perimeter areas are 50 - 55 when you start then that large surface make not stick.

 

i would love to see what happened with you in photos if that's not too much to ask ..

amazing reply .. you really know what you do ..

i think we should make a corner in this forum for architectural work .. as it has many different aspects of regular printing ..

thnx again for you time and reply

 

I agree! Printing for a hobby is fun, but as an architecture student I'd be really interested to share tips and techniques specific to architectural model making/splitting/slicing/finishing.

And what's up with all those issues with white filament anyway? To be discussed another time.

These posts have actually been really valuable, thanks gr5 and yellowshark (and yes, pictures please, if you can)!

[gr5 2,167]

White filament is less viscous (more like water than toothpaste) and so it doesn't stay exactly where you put it. It also leaks more so you get stringing. Better to print with some other color and then paint it white if you want it to look perfect.

[gr5 2,167]

Also some colors show errors more than others. I think white is the worst but black also shows certain other kinds of errors if it's shiny because all you see is reflections so the layers are much more visible in black parts.

[yellowshark 153]

Yup agree with George - if a specific colour is not a requirement I tend to use various blues, reds/burgundies, greys and ColorFabbb Dutch orange has always delivered excellent results for me - which is not to say there are no other good colours, just my personal experience.

I will try and post some photos tomorrow

[yellowshark 153]

Ok I have posted a new thread, Architecture, with pics and comments