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anxjfarnorth

Upgraded my UM2 with plus kit now under extrusion

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Hello community, I've been printing for a while but first time posting! Normally I can figure stuff out on my own or find it on the interwebs but this one I cant seem to find since its a new kit.

I installed the upgrade kit the other day and I was super excited as I had some projects that would benefit from this. I made a few test prints in PLA and was super happy with the quality. I noticed I had some under extrusion on a long print and thought maybe this was an accident as I had the filament routed around the post on the back. So I just moved forward.

Next I "tried" printing with ninjaflex and couldn't even get a quarter of the layer printed before it just stop flowing......tried all sorts of stuff oiled the tube, increased the flow to 200%,increased the temperature of the nozzle, loosened feeder tension........no luck

Then said screw it I will print my alloy 910........yeah major under extrusion issues as well.........messed with the feeder tension, done a cleaning of the nozzle but always shows up clean........so im at a loss! Atm I have a really nice looking paperweight and kind of upset I messed with something that wasnt broken! Haha

Any help I will take thanks!

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Start by heating nozzle to 150C, pull the filament back into the bowden a bit, then removing the nozzle then letting it cool below 50C then try sliding the filament through the head to make sure there isn't massive friction somewhere in the bowden or the teflon part, or some other thing badly aligned. Perhaps the bowden wasn't seated properly at the factory (it's hard to tell with that aluminum cylinder hiding your view). Perhaps the filament is stuck in the bowden due to some stray filament. perhaps the filament is getting stuck somewhere else.

For ninja flex I recommend going extra hot - maybe 240C.

In fact I've heard rumors that you need much different temps for the plus. Maybe you need to raise your standard printing temps that worked for you in the past by 20C.

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Excellent!  You have diagnosed 50 possible problems down to just a few.  You should be overjoyed.  Seriously.  Now you know it's not the feeder or the stepper or the electronics or the nozzle temp or a clogged nozzle or another 50 things.

I I'm not sure what to do next.  You are going to have to take the head apart regardless.  do you have a spare teflon part to replace the existing one with?  Maybe the head is too tight?  Maybe if you rotate the round nut a bit to release the pressure on the white teflon part some?  Maybe if you loosen the 4 screws that hold the head by 1 full turn to just feel if there is a difference?  maybe replace the aluminum cylinder with the old spring so you can see what is going on?  or with this part?

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/um2-spring-replacement

You are probably going to have to take the head apart and check the hole along the way.  Are you sure it isn't just catching when you insert new filament but it's fine once it starts printing?  I guess you would have noticed that by now when you were passing the filament through.

Let us know what you find out so I can pass the knowledge onto the next person and I might even feedback what you find to UM if there's a chance someone is building this kit wrong.

Edited by Guest

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yeah this is a long story! and it isn't fixed yet! ive taken everything off and on and opened and inspected and cant seem to find a fault! even going back to PLA I cant print it with out under extrusion. I'm wishing I didn't upgrade........next step is to take the new feeder off and put the old one back on.......if this works then this whole thing was pointless.......

(still love my UM2 just annoyed!)

been getting help from UM support! great guys!

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I recently upgraded my UM2 Extended to 2+ using the kit.  And immediately started seeing under extrusion.  This is my first 3D printer and I don't know if what I did is at all right, but what seems to have worked for me was carefully and BY HAND twisting an 1/8" drill bit up into the opening from the nozzle end (after removing the nozzle and Bowden tube).  The drill bit diameter at the tip is 3.18 mm.  I turned the bit into the opening a little at a time by hand, then pulled it out carefully each time (sometimes by hand, sometimes needing pliers to pull it out).  I did that about half a dozen times.  There seemed to be quite a bit less resistance when I tried pushing filament through the heated nozzle by hand (with the Bowden tube removed) vs before.  I also put some Canola oil on the first couple feet of the filament before I inserted it into the feeder.  

It seems to have made a world of a difference (although I can't say now which had the greater benefit - reaming out the PTFE bushing with the drill bit or the use of Canola oil on the filament).  So far, I think my prints are coming out better than ever.

Again, I don't know if there are any deleterious effects from doing this but so far I'm happy with the results.

Edited by Guest

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well there isn't a problem with the PTFE (its got as new name) I did a test and set the heat to zero and used the feeder motor and it pushed the filament through the heater block with ou the nozzle on just fine. but once you put a blockage on the front the feeder motor starts skipping right away. I've messed with the pressure settings and no matter what I do it does the same thing. (I did do the oil trick and nothing helped)

even when I swapped it back to the old system with the PTFE and spring it still did it.....its a feeder problem!

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Skipping is normal if you are pushing beyond speed/temp limits. But if nothing is coming out then it's probably the nozzle itself that is blocked. You could put on one of the other nozzles - say the .6mm?

Also skipping is common on the bottom layer - it means the glass is a little close to the nozzle so there isn't much space but that's usually how you want it. If I get skipping on the bottom layer I usually slow it down, raise the temperature, or turn the 3 screws 1/4 turn clockwise to give the nozzle a little more space. If you are getting skipping on higher layers then slow it down and raise the temp.

Here are my recommended top speeds for .2mm layers (twice as fast for .1mm layers) and .4mm nozzle:

20mm/sec at 200C

30mm/sec at 210C

40mm/sec at 225C

50mm/sec at 240C

The printer can do double these speeds but with huge difficulty and usually with a loss in part quality due to underextrusion. Different colors print best at quite different temperatures and due to imperfect temp sensors, some printers print 10C cool so use these values as an initial starting guideline and if you are still underextruding try raising the temp. But don't go over 240C with PLA.

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I am having this same issue, but on a shop bought UM2+. I have a UM2 as well and can print the identical file with the identical settings and get a far better print without under extrusion on the UM2. It has been back to UM and they can't find the issue. I can tweak the settings in S3D to improve the print but I don't think this should be required. I am about to print the feeder that I have changed from the stock feeder on my UM2 and try that on the UM2+ to see if its the feeder causing the issue.

I will update this thread if I get a good result.

BR

Rich

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Hmmm, changing the feeder of the UM2+ to a printed UM2 feeder is not that easy, you need a different stepper motor, like the one in the UM2, the one in the 2+ is different and itr has the gear attached, don't think you want to remove that....

Did you check the obvious?

remove boden from the head, heat the nozzle, push in some PLA manually? do atomic puls? did you open the 2+ feeder housing to see if there's anything wrong in there? did you try to move filament? is it loading/unloading fillament ok?

Are you sure you have a underextrusion issue and not a cooling issue? What firmware are you using?

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Hmmm, changing the feeder of the UM2+ to a printed UM2 feeder is not that easy, you need a different stepper motor, like the one in the UM2, the one in the 2+ is different and itr has the gear attached, don't think you want to remove that....

Did you check the obvious?

remove boden from the head, heat the nozzle, push in some PLA manually? do atomic puls? did you open the 2+ feeder housing to see if there's anything wrong in there? did you try to move filament? is it loading/unloading fillament ok?

Are you sure you have a underextrusion issue and not a cooling issue? What firmware are you using?

 

Hmm maybe I won't be doing that then.

Yep, I have done all that. As I said it has been back to UM and they fixed something that was broken in the feeder, but there are still gaps. Using the latest firmware, printing with Carbon filament with a hardened steel nozzle at 250ºC with no fans and slower than the recommended speed from ColoFabb and still have the problem. I print the same material with tweaked settings in S3D with less extrusion on my UM2 than I have to use with the UM2+ and at 240ºC as well, and quicker. If I match the settings I use on the UM2 and use it on the UM2+ the under extrusion is much worse.

BR

Rich

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I have also installed the extrusion upgrade, and after a week with various prints, I have come to some experiences. First of all the tinkergnome 16.03 var really buggy for this, which is a pity as it was much easier to see whats going on. To get better prints I had to reinstall the 2+ extended firmware from Ultimaker, and do a full factory reset. A lot of minor annoyances disappeared, however the prints were still under extruded. This is the 3d print test:

IMG_2253.thumb.jpg.66a7314814449d3d1e614409c0a0e3c3.jpg

Looks horrible.

However, I decided to try the ultiarjans temp steps test, and the direct g-codes. Interestingly enough it looked much better:

IMG_2249.thumb.jpg.06e30daedff32ecef0274a2794940d81.jpgIMG_2251.thumb.jpg.f5480a025d70365bd8b750ed9ac350a3.jpg

This lead me to believe there are something else going on here. I am now going yo try to slice the 3d print test in Cura instead og Simplify3D, which I have used until now.

And I will slice the ultiarjan test in S3D and see if there are differences. I have a feeling it has something to do with either slicing settings or firmware. At least I hope so. So far Cura version seem to be much less under-extruded than S3D.

What confuses me is that I have tried to increase the extrusion multiplier almost to double the old value and it still is not good. So maybe I have just been lucky with the last prints.

IMG_2253.thumb.jpg.66a7314814449d3d1e614409c0a0e3c3.jpg

IMG_2249.thumb.jpg.06e30daedff32ecef0274a2794940d81.jpg

IMG_2251.thumb.jpg.f5480a025d70365bd8b750ed9ac350a3.jpg

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I'm pretty sure the new feeder has been tested by um for a looooong time....

I suspect there's an issue with the + version of tinker 16.3. Seemed to me my fans never came to full speed so I also went back to the Ultimaker 2+ firmware. I'll just wait until tinkergnome finds the time to have a look at it....

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And you did play with the temperature?

According to UM there was a wide variance in the old PT100's (temp sensor) so there can be a significant difference in the printing temperature you need. Although I don't see it myself. Before the upgrade I had issues with top layers not properly closing (gaps between lines) after the upgrade I have very good surface quality. Did some pla test yesterday at 200c and 210c both nice, even though I deliberately used an almost finished spool of PLA, which used to be difficult to print due to the extra tension in the material.

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Ok lets take a step back. Did you do the test @gr5 described in his first reaction? Lets first determine (if it's hardware)  if it's the feeder or the hot-end  causing issues. If I had to bet I would guess the hot-end but do the test gr5 describes.

Another thing I would do, and takes only a few minutes is reinstall the firmware.

Do a factory reset first, then install using cura 15.04.5. Make sure you have the correct printer selected.

I'm using the latest @tinkergnome again since yesterday, version  16.03.1 , works great for me.

https://github.com/TinkerGnome/Ultimaker2Marlin/releases

And to prove my results after the upgrade are good (though printed a little to hot....)

20160410_142316.thumb.jpg.edee9ae4282440210942799156e5efac.jpg

20160410_142344.thumb.jpg.ece72887903caac41d46af3fc9328947.jpg

20160410_142410.thumb.jpg.24c28989f5f28bebbf2e1b476c45f7e5.jpg

20160410_145359.thumb.jpg.bb16c8a3dbd6086c49e3bedbe98a2772.jpg

UM2+ upgrade, 210c, bed60c, cura 15.04.5, speed 30, fan full on at 2.5mm, 0.1 layer, labern fanholder.

and here;

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/6436-a-tougher-extrusion-test-o?page=1&sort=#reply-143035

20160410_142316.thumb.jpg.edee9ae4282440210942799156e5efac.jpg

20160410_142344.thumb.jpg.ece72887903caac41d46af3fc9328947.jpg

20160410_142410.thumb.jpg.24c28989f5f28bebbf2e1b476c45f7e5.jpg

20160410_145359.thumb.jpg.bb16c8a3dbd6086c49e3bedbe98a2772.jpg

Edited by Guest

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Ok lets take a step back. Did you do the test @gr5 described in his first reaction? Lets first determine (if it's hardware)  if it's the feeder or the hot-end  causing issues. If I had to bet I would guess the hot-end but do the test gr5 describes.

Another thing I would do, and takes only a few minutes is reinstall the firmware.

Do a factory reset first, then install using cura 15.04.5. Make sure you have the correct printer selected.

I'm using the latest @tinkergnome again since yesterday, version  16.03.1 , works great for me.

https://github.com/TinkerGnome/Ultimaker2Marlin/releases

And to prove my results after the upgrade are good (though printed a little to hot....)

20160410_142316.thumb.jpg.edee9ae4282440210942799156e5efac.jpg

20160410_142344.thumb.jpg.ece72887903caac41d46af3fc9328947.jpg

20160410_142410.thumb.jpg.24c28989f5f28bebbf2e1b476c45f7e5.jpg

20160410_145359.thumb.jpg.bb16c8a3dbd6086c49e3bedbe98a2772.jpg

UM2+ upgrade, 210c, bed60c, cura 15.04.5, speed 30, fan full on at 2.5mm, 0.1 layer, labern fanholder.

and here;

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/6436-a-tougher-extrusion-test-o?page=1&sort=#reply-143035

 

you might have got a good one......like Komodo, I have tried every possible way! re-installing, factory reset, swapping out the old PTFE set up, changing temps, changing feeder pressure, changing Bowden tubes, ( I tried swapping the heater blocks but when I went to remove my old one the heat sensor wire broke inside of it so made me a bit upset), opened the feeder to inspect, I don't feel like typing it all down but I've done it all and it has frustrated me beyond belief! I had 3 good prints come off my printer after the upgrade (6 hours of printing)..............after that it was nothing but fails.

but good on you for having a working printer! lol

I'm two weeks behind on my work and soon to be three!

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I think I have sorted my problem. I had tried cleaning the nozzle out a couple of times using atomic pulls with no luck. I usually only print in black material, be it carbon or PLA, so I didn't notice that the material hand't completely come out of the nozzle. I had some red to print for a change and that gave to the answer. After changing the filament I was still getting black material coming out of the nozzle for a good 5-10mins. So I spent around an hour purging the nozzle and doing atomic pulls until it finally came out clean. I then printed a test part with normal settings (i.e. same as the UM2) and its printed perfectly again. Normally atomic pulls clean the nozzle in 2-3 rotations, but it must have take about 20, if not more, to get this one sorted. Never had it that bad before.

BR

Rich

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