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Baffled by Brim as a Default Setting

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I know that I can change this default by editing a config file...but...I am still baffled by why I need to do so?  If someone can afford to buy an Ultimaker they should be able to make prints stick without a brim.  If they really need one then the corollary is that they will be experienced enough to turn on the option!

I installed the beta of Cura, oops, have to remember the config file.  I reinstalled the pre-beta as I was having trouble with the beta, oops, have to remember the config file.  I now installed the gold version and, yup, oops, gotta remember the config file!  If your default profiles were not as good as they are then this would be less of a problem as I would never print anything without using one of my own profiles (without a bleeding brim) but your default profiles are good.  Except for that silly ass default.

Sorry if I sound cranky... I had not changed this setting after installing the new release and had an unwanted brim appear!

If someone wants to change the default look for the file fdmprinter.def.json. When you edit that file search for adhesion_type and change "brim" to "skirt".

Edited by Guest
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Yeah Brim sucks on the most part but I guess the simple profiles are for new users.

Seeing first layer adheasion is one of the biggest issues heince the auto bed leveling. Then making sure people who make their first prints have no issues is probably their main objective. It's the whole "just press print and it will magically work perfectly" goal that manufactures have.

I think in this case it could be on by default while in simple mode but turned off by default in custom mode.

Or even have a note packed in with the glass saying "don't get your greasy mits all over me" and a few tips on how to make sure it's all going to work.

I do find it a bit annoying that it's on by default in custom mode and always turn it off. It has caught me out a few times but that's why there is a feature to create your own profiles.

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I LOVE brim. It's all about success ratios. Prints with a brim have a higher success ratio then those without brims. As success ratio is mostly about the first layer sticking to the bed. If the first layer sticks, the main left over failure case is when your filament is tangled or runs out.

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I HATE brim and I think CuraEngine should be smart about it and only enable it when the bounding box size is smaller than X (which needs to be determined by the testing team). Or it should be super smart and be able to measure the volume of the area for the first layer which would take care of prints with a big bounding box but a small tip at the bottom.

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I hate brim. I use a skirt with 0.25 distance to the print so is actually touching slightly but enough separated to be really easy to remove.

Anyhow I think any 3d printer should learn to check the gcode preview before printing anything. Since gcode on cura is auto generated without any important call to the user, is very easy for a new user to just don't even think about using the gcode view. Also the lines view on cura is very weak and lacks of the important information a 3d printer needs to know what will happen in detail.

But everyone knows that I prefer s3d for many reasons...

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Brim - or manual "mouse ears" certainly helps a lot to reduce warping/lifting corners when printing big rectangular plate geometries such as many architectural models.

I can understand the frustration that it limits the max print area, but why do you find it difficult to remove? Normally I can just peel it off by hand and then use a simple deburring tool to trim the outer edges.

/Daniel

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Also if you can put a filet on that bottom edge, I find that helps with removal and if necessary masking the deburring, as does using a very high quality file. If dimensional accuracy is important, constraining you with just how much you can squish that 1st layer into the bed, a brim is the best solution imho. But yes it can add work and ruin an edge if you are sloppy.

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I find brim easy to peel off so I don't really see why people hate it. If needed I use a sharp knife held 90deg to the part so it doesn't cut into the part. It just scrape's the edge.

But I don't use brim very often as it's not required most of the time

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But I don't use brim very often as it's not required most of the time

My point exactly! If it is not required "most of the time" then why is it a default?!? Yes, I know, it is all about the first time user but then it should be trivial to turn it off (as in through the GUI). Yes, I know, I can turn it off in my custom profiles but I should not need to! I should just be able to use the standard profiles for a standard print and not end up with the extra work of peeling off the brim. And finally, yes, I know that I should check the layers view...but I don't always.

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You seem bizarrely indignant that cura defaults to brim. Meanwhile I'll present why I think this is correct:

If the part warps off the bed, the user blames the printer.

Even if only 1/20 prints *need* a brim, I think keeping it simple for basic users is what cura default settings should do, so then the brim should stay on.

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You seem bizarrely indignant that cura defaults to brim.  Meanwhile I'll present why I think this is correct:

If the part warps off the bed, the user blames the printer.

Even if only 1/20 prints *need* a brim, I think keeping it simple for basic users is what cura default settings should do, so then the brim should stay on.

 

If you are talking to me then note that I surrendered several messages ago.

Every person that prints, prints differently. I use brim very very rarely. I am more likely to build my own brim onto a part where it is needed and easy to detach rather than have the slicer brim the whole part.

But since you bring it up again. Beginner mode and expert mode. Brim on in the former and off in the latter. Possibly the same with some other settings.

But I don't really care. I surrendered long ago and cast all that bizarre indignation out the door. I'm back to using S3D for most of my printing other than dual extrusion anyway as 3.4 seems incapable of doing the detail work that I rely on...but that is another thread.

And it really doesn't matter, and this I am not so bizarrely indignant about...my UM3 is down hard because of a jammed filament that will not come out of the print core hence the print core will not come out of the assembly it sits in.

Not a happy camper with the quality of my UM3 experience. First printer DOA, second printer down for a couple of days to have slider blocks replaced. Now down for this. In between it stops printing details without stringing. Before that it stops auto leveling. Cura defaults for brim don't really even rank regardless of how bizarre they are!

Will

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And it really doesn't matter, and this I am not so bizarrely indignant about...my UM3 is down hard because of a jammed filament that will not come out of the print core hence the print core will not come out of the assembly it sits in.

 

Is the Print Core not heating anymore? Did the filament snap off somewhere between the Core and the top of the printhead block? Is there another thread with the Print Core issue?

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Is the Print Core not heating anymore? Did the filament snap off somewhere between the Core and the top of the printhead block? Is there another thread with the Print Core issue?

 

No thread as I went through reseller support channel. Was doing a dual extrusion print using T-Glaze in the right print core. Came back to the printer after a bit to find a nozzle jam on said print core. Canceled the print and tried to unload the filament but could not due to no traction on the filament due to grinding. It was so bad that I had to disassemble the filament drive. Then tried an unload but with manual pull and no joy. The tried heating to 260c to try and pull it out by brute force with no luck. Then tried heating to 260c for 15 minutes with the same result. Thought that I might be able to cut the filament just above where it enters the the print head but t-glaze is too stiff for that trick when combined with the extra stuff on the right side. So the print core is well and truly stuck. It is off the printer waiting to go to the doctor and the printer is lights out.

Will

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Hey sorry about it I see you're having a lot of trouble.

I run a shared UM3 a little and a prusa along with my repraps. Sometimes every printer goes through the worst shit.

I didn't really read the whole thread and notice you agreed brim might make sense in some cases.

Hope the rest of your problems resolve.

FYI in future I think heating the t-glase above 200C should be plenty to remove it from a clog. I would probably heat the end up and manually pull back, but it sounds like you've tried a few similar things like that and your issue might be more complicated than I can diagnose from the description. Good luck

I acually don't print as often on the UM3 as on my own printers (since it's not really mine) but it is in my mind a beautiful machine. I can't see where it would have worse problems than other printers in terms of the clog/jam you got. My issues with clogs in all my printers have nearly eliminated vs. 3 yrs ago except for certain filaments that seem to have quality issues and if I print .25mm nozzle (just too small.)

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Hey sorry about it I see you're having a lot of trouble.

I run a shared UM3 a little and a prusa along with my repraps. Sometimes every printer goes through the worst shit.  

I didn't really read the whole thread and notice you agreed brim might make sense in some cases.

Hope the rest of your problems resolve.  

FYI in future I think heating the t-glase above 200C should be plenty to remove it from a clog.  I would probably heat the end up and manually pull back, but it sounds like you've tried a few similar things like that and your issue might be more complicated than I can diagnose from the description. Good luck

I acually don't print as often on the UM3 as on my own printers (since it's not really mine) but it is in my mind a beautiful machine.  I can't see where it would have worse problems than other printers in terms of the clog/jam you got. My issues with clogs in all my printers have nearly eliminated vs. 3 yrs ago except for certain filaments that seem to have quality issues and if I print .25mm nozzle (just too small.)

 

I hope, for Ultimaker's sake, that I am the exception! I have had two UM2s for going on two years and have never had anything but good luck with them (though I have had some self inflicted wounds). The problems that I have had have been resolved easily and quickly with minimal downtime from printing. I have gotten great support from the reseller (3DGBIRE) so far but it is still painful to have such an expensive printer sitting idle.

Re Jams. I stopped using cheap filament some time ago as I like the quality and consistency of a better quality of plastic. I have had some pretty good jams in the past though with the "+" upgrade the UM2's did get better even with my .25mm nozzles. I left the heat on this jam at 260c for fifteen minutes and still no luck pulling.

We will see. Hoping for the best in terms of getting some working parts back.

Will

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Have you tried hot pulls followed by cold pulls?

I had a bad jam with PVA that had high water content. Was able to clear it by heating it up hot. Then pushing in filament quite hard for a short​ duration so I wouldn't melt too much. Then pull. Did that quite a few times. Every time it dragged out some old stuff till I was able to do an atomic pull.

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I did what 3DGBIRE recommended which was just to get it hot over a fifteen or so minute period. I did try pushing and it did not move...same in other direction and both with a lot of force.

 It is disassembled and the filament cut down in hopes that I could at least eject the print core.

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You should not need to get it hot over 15 minutes and you are likely to just degrade any plastic further. The typical procedure (please correct me anyone if I'm wrong) is more like what Labern said, to heat it up so you can fuse the filament with filament in the hot end, then pull when it's somewhere between cold and hot, such that you can pull out viscous material attached to the filament you just fused into the melt chamber. This is repeated a few times. Sometimes I find it useful to insert a 0.35mm steel cable into the nozzle end to break things up, feeling it 1mm in at a time, but I haven't done that for 2 years since I don't really clog much these days. There are some conditions in which you might heat for 15 minutes, but not typical ones [maybe that's why someone suggested teh 15 minute procedure, I'm not 100% clear on it and haven't fully checked where it is someone wrote that]

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I am out of practice clearing jams as I can not really remember the last time I had one on my UM2+ machines and this was certainly a first on the UM3. It was a jam like no other that I have ever had. The filament would not budge in either direction under normal filament temperature (235c t-glase). At 260c same thing. I was able to lift the machine and swing it around my head on the filament stuck in the print core. Ok, not exactly, but you get the point. I am looking forward to the post mortem.

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