Looking for a replacement for my Raise3D... UM3e?

[Bossler 8]

Hi there!

 

Some 3+ month ago I went into 3D-Printing and my choice was a Raise3D N2.

To make a long story short - despite some design flaws (which one can deal with) it does have multiple defects which seem too hard to fix for Raise3D.

Since they refused to exchange the defect machine I have no other choice than to finally cross Raise3D off my list.

Despite the defects - which can always happen - I must say their behavior of refusing a replacement really p... well, was a strange experience for me.

 

I am now looking to the Ultimaker 3 Extended as an replacement - but I am open for other ideas, as well;-)

 

One thing I worry about - I have quite some 1,75 mm filament lying around here and would love to use that with my next printer.

So a natural question: Is there a proven and reliable method to convert the UM3 to the use of 1.75mm filament?

I also have increasingly seen infos, that 2.85mm filament is sort of phase-out stuff?

 

By the way - can one use 1kg spools? The spool-holder looks a little "on the small side"?

 

Another thing I wonder - is there a kit with a lid and a closed door for the UM3 available yet?

I have just seen kits for the UM2/+ or a door only for the UM3?

Because I know from my own experience, that 3D-printing produces quite a bit of dust and harmful leftovers,

do want to minimize that flowing around my office...

 

Since the UM3 uses a Bowden-Extruder:

Any experience printing felxible materials? I frequently need stuff made of that, used PolyMakers PolyFlex until now.

Another filament I like is PolyMakers PolyWood, good for "artistic models". Does it work in the UM3?

 

Not to forget that one:

Curious to hear how your experience was with Ultimaker handling defects, if any?

Do not want to have the "Raise3D-Experience" again...

 

So far for now -

already thank you very much for your answers!

 

Have a great day,

Bossler

[SandervG 1,521]

Hi @Bossler,

 

Welcome to the community! 

Looks like I am the first one to reply. Usually, this thread is used when people want to sell, so not that often monitored by most members of the community.

But you've definitely selected the right category based on its description. 

 

I'm happy to hear that you are considering an Ultimaker 3 Extended when looking for an alternative for your current 3D printer, the Raise3D.

Regarding your experience of why you feel like you need to cross the Raise3D of your list, I like to think we have always helped our customers where possible (and reasonable I must add). Outside of that, we also have this awesome community to help everyone in need, if help can be offered in the form of advice and aid. 

One unbiased thing that can vouch for this I think, is that if we did a terrible way of interacting with our users we would never have such a community of 3D printing experts. 

 

Re your concern with 1.75mm filament; yes. That is a bridge you probably will have to cross and then burn. Welcome to the land of 2.85mm filament. I would not recommend to mod your Ultimaker 3 into 1.75mm filament. There are some mod (I know @gr5 sold one) for the Ultimaker 2(+), but they are rare. Since we are working with a bowden tube, 2.85mm filament works just slightly better. 

 

1kg reels; you can. It kinda depends on the diameter of the hole in the reel, but you can print your own reel holder if it would not fit or put the reel on a lazy susan. There are decent alternatives outside of the regular spoolholder that is included with the Ultimaker. 

 

Closed door; also yes! Check out this link

 

In general, yes it works. But it is definitely more tricky than regular filament and has some more limitations. It kinda depends on how flexible the filament needs to be and if there are any special requirements to it. You can find a variety of topics about flexible filament on our forums with various tips and tricks. 

 

Woodfill materials are no problem. It is recommended to use a bigger nozzle so the fibers don't block your nozzle that easily. With the Ultimaker 3 you have the choice of an 0.8 print core

 

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask and by all means poke around in our community! Looking forward hearing from you!

 

 

 

 

[Bossler 8]

Hello SandervG,

 

thank you for your reply & the infos!

 

Regarding the experience with Raise3D - that is something I do not want to have again.

 

So I'd be interested in learning how Ultimaker has set up it's product care?

Would I always need to contact the reseller? Does Ultimaker have a fixed partner for that per country?

Which then would have to contact Ultimaker? Or can I contact Ultimaker directly to solve (hopefully never happening) defects?

Having to send in the printer to a reseller who then may or may not sends it to the manufacturer and vice versa is a time consuming procedure.

As I am mechanically and electrically experienced, I quite often would be able to fix things myself with the right parts being made available by the manufacturer.

But when it comes to major mechanical defects, I will depend on the manufacturer for sure (e.g. exchanging and re-calibrating a Z-axis might be tough;-)

 

Do you know PolyMaker's PolyFlex? Is that printable with the UM3e?

[gr5 2,265]

I never monitor this part of the forum so if Sander hadn't flagged me I wouldn't have seen this post.  You may not get any replies from anyone else because of this issue.

 

But here we are.

 

Wow - lots of questions.

 

So there is no 1.75mm mod yet but...  I've been looking for someone to try a mod in USA but you are in Germany. But if you contact carl at 3dsolex.com you can probably talk him into sending you a free conversion kit if you promise to test it.  His solution and my solution are different.  His solution puts an inner bowden all the way to the feeder.  I don't like that - if he sends that to you then you might consider cutting off just enough bowden to fit inside the core.  Anyway - I don't recommend you try this until you've used the UM3 for a while and are an expert.  You will also have to fudge the "flow" parameter to 265% (ratio of the two filament diameters squared).  The feeder can handle 1.75mm filament - it's a pretty amazing feeder.  Or you can tell Cura that it's 1.75mm filament and keep flow at 100%.

 

Anyway - other questions - I don't know much about support.  It depends which reseller you use.  Consider using dim3nsioneer who has amazing support but is in Switzerland.  Or igo3d whose support may be worse but they are very professional and do a lot of business selling UM printers.  You can get great advice here on the forums.

 

As far as printing polyflex - well this is about as flexible as ninjaflex (slightly more flexible) - so this is a very difficult material to print on a bowden printer.  I don't think you can print 1.75mm filament (it's like pushing on a string - the feeder has to push the filament through a 1 meter bowden tube) of this type but 2.85mm you can print because the larger diameter makes it a little stiffer.  You will need to add oil to the filament to get it to slip through the bowden.  It's a tricky filament but you can do it.  I've done it with ninjaflex.  However there are easier materials like Ninjatek Cheetah or Ultimaker's TPU95 which are quite flexible but no where near as flexible as polyflex.

 

More material info here (I will make sure to add polyflex to these tables but it appears identical to ninjaflex)

 

[gr5 2,265]

Oh and you can get Um3 covers from printedSolid.com.  I don't know if they ship to Germany.  If they don't and you want one, let me know and we can arrange shipping (I run a store in USA but don't normally ship to Germany).

[Bossler 8]

Hi gr5,

 

wow, lot of answers;-)

 

Thank you for all the info & tips.

 

I understand the point reg. 3mm material being much more suitable for a bowden type extruder.

Makes perfect sense.

 

What kind of mod did you have in mind?

I do not yet have the UM3e here but would be more than happy to investigate into ways of expanding the 
possibilities regarding material usage in the UM3.

While "crossing the bridge" as Sander said is a one time thing and is not a real showstopper for me,

it would be a plus to be able to use 1,75mm as well.

 

Let's keep in touch until I am "converted" into an UM3-User;-)

 

 

I've also read your statement regarding igo3d "carefully" - since I already have been told, well, let's say alerting things about the support one can get from there...

Need to investigate a bit further - if I get the feeling that these are for real, I am afraid I will have to look for something else than an UM.

Because I am not willing to pay for an expensive product but get treated like a beggar when the sold product has defects.

In the end the support & after sales care is the thing I am willing to pay a premium for -
otherwise I could buy a lot of cheap Chinese kits for the same money and "help myself".

 

I think that is something especially the 3D-printing-industry has to learn from the "old economy" -
how you deal with production quality deviation, customer experience management and the like.

I hope Ultimaker makes a difference here compared to the things I've seen "somewhere else". Let's see.

If I were managing at Ultimaker I would carefully watch the performance of my partners and adjust as needed...

 

Polyflex by the way printed quite okay with the Raise3D N2 (with bondtech upgrade, by the way).

It required some tweaking with the settings, especially retraction was a bit of a struggle to get right.

But it did work quite okay in the end. Unfortunately my N2 produced some ugly artifacts in the lower areas of prints

(due to defects in the Z-axis) but in general the prints came out quite good. Stringing was an issue. 

Need to look into the technical data for TPU95 to judge whether that could be a replacement for Polyflex.

I used Polyflex for seals mainly - and I must admit that I am still not done with testing the reliability of Polyflex-printed seals exposed to oil/petrol/diesel...

Oil on the filament sounds somewhat strange to me. Maybe different PTFE-tubes can solve that as well?

[kmanstudios 1,120]

Without repeating any of the things above, I love my UM3X. In the last year, it has only been down for about 72 hours if you count all the times I was too tired in the middle of the night to switch out plates and start a new file. That is about the only time it got turned off.

 

I just recently had the opportunity to purchase another printer and went straight to the UM3X again. I've been keeping up with the tech and, as I understand it more, there was nothing that made me think twice about getting another one. I have been able to print just about anything including materials not rated on the UM3X, such as ninja flex. It really has been a workhorse.

 

You will not be sorry.

[SandervG 1,521]

15 hours ago, Bossler said:

thank you for your reply & the infos!

 

Regarding the experience with Raise3D - that is something I do not want to have again.

No problem :), and I can totally imagine! 

 

15 hours ago, Bossler said:

Would I always need to contact the reseller? Does Ultimaker have a fixed partner for that per country?

 

Yes (well, kinda) and yes. Since a couple of years we have stopped with direct sales and decided it would be in our users benefit if there was localized support in their own language, culture and timezone. And we pride ourselves for our close relationship with our partners, the effort we put into training them and how we take care of our customers in general. Since you seem to be in Germany you have a range of options to choose from. Our network consists of a sales partner and resellers. We, Ultimaker, communicate mostly with the sales partner in a region. In their turn, they maintain communication with all resellers. If you want to keep your lines as short as possible, I would recommend to get in touch with iGo3D. 

They have certified people who can tell you all about Ultimaker and also have the skills and know-how how to repair it, if it would be necessary. 

Besides this, Ultimaker has a great community of product experts. There is also a variety of Ultimaker employees roaming these forums, also from R&D. Everyone is here to help each other and learn from each other. But for 'official' support, the place where you bought your Ultimaker is where you should go. 

 

I hear your concern re iGo3D. When you would feel abandoned, you can always reach out to us and we will help you get in touch with iGo and make sure you get the help you deserve. (this is not something specifically for them, in general, we want to make sure all our customers are treated well). 

 

Re repairs; depending on the intensity of your defect and the involved necessary tools you can discuss with your reseller if you would prefer to send your Ultimaker in or try to repair it yourself. 

 

Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions

 

One question from my side; what are you planning on making? What have you been making with your Raise3D?

 

 

[Bossler 8]

Kman,

thanks for emphasizing your satisfaction with the UM - always good to see that there are happy users of the product one is about to purchase.

 

Sander,

 

thank you very much as well for detailing UM's approach reg. customer care.

Understood.

Reg. igo3d - I am not really concerned, I just read/listen and get some feeling... 

I do not have a final picture yet.

Please don't get me wrong - I do absolutely not want to need support for my next 3D-printer...

But I learned the hard way how important it is to have a reliable partner for this kind of machines.

In the past I did repair nearly everything myself (I do have a background as mechanic and electronics engineer from the past;-).

But - at least for the R3D - one does need some special equipment and Know-how to repair it.

 

The intended use of the 3D-printer was initially to produce a variety of spare parts which I mainly construct myself.

I am not a senior CAD-guy but get along quite good with it, I'd say.

One major area are replacement parts for old-timer cars but I also "redraw" nearly everything that's needed.

When asking for the R3D in particular - I did mainly print test-objects and have a bunch of useless plastic in a big box now...

Some functional parts went okay so far, when you ignore "cosmetic" defects.

 

 

I have seen that the UM3e does currently have some 2 weeks lead time?

Is that the normal lead time?

 

 

[SandervG 1,521]

No problem, hopefully it was clear. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask! 

I understand, no one wants to need support. We also do our best to prevent this and make our Ultimaker 3D printers as reliable and user friendly as possible. 

We also take maintenance into user account when designing the Ultimaker, so you can do all maintenance yourself and ensure a long lifetime for your machinery. As good as we design it, it might be good to mention that just like every piece of machine, a few drops of oil and some cleaning now and then get you a long way

 

When you have a spare part made, do you also test fit it in the car and perhaps function test it, depending on its purpose?

Do you get it machined afterwards with different tools?

 

Re leadtime, hm. It should usually be in stock as far as I know. I suppose it gives you some more time to talk to other users and get a better feel for Ultimaker

 

 

[kmanstudios 1,120]

9 minutes ago, Bossler said:

Please don't get me wrong - I do absolutely not want to need support for my next 3D-printer...

But I learned the hard way how important it is to have a reliable partner for this kind of machines.

In the past I did repair nearly everything myself (I do have a background as mechanic and electronics engineer from the past;-).

But - at least for the R3D - one does need some special equipment and Know-how to repair it.

As you mention as a person in the engineering field, I am sure you are aware of how, I hate to use the word delicate, but I cannot think of another, that these types of machines can be. Rough transportation and other factors can create issues. And, with electronics, it is not impossible to get a lemon of a board or some such. It happens in every machine I have ever owned. No two are ever alike, almost with their own personalities, if you will. I know the service I have received from fbrc8 here in the US has been superb. @fbrc8-erin has been most helpful, here and as a service contact and @gr5 is just a volcano of knowledge.

 

But, if I can work on one of these things, then you surely can with your background. I can say that the support I did need was met with a lot of information and a few minor replacement parts from when I first got one. And if it can handle my way of doing things, just jump in and just tear into it without plan, it should show it is a robust machine, well organized in a logical manner and with a lot of good information here to ask for and receive. That is why I say that with all that it has gone through in the last year of printing, it just keeps going.

 

It did bug me out at first to find out about the service methods and the forum being basically the 'helpdesk' for lack of a better term, but it has exceeded my expectations.

[SandervG 1,521]

1 hour ago, kmanstudios said:

a volcano of knowledge.

lol I am gonna remember this one! 

[jonatanrullman 17]

I don't have much to add to this. But a few tidbits.

 

I can attest that 1.75 works beautifully on UM2 if you do it right. I'm thinking of making a small writeup about my conversion at a later date. The UM3 is very different with the print cores and such. I'm not sure at all it would work but since I have never seen an UM3 in real life I should probably just shut up.

 

I have bought doors for all my three UM2s from a german eBay store called shopfablab. Excellent doors, though he doesn't list UM3X as an option. I bought my 2X from him though by sending a message and asking if he could just cut one that was identical but 10cm taller and that worked superb. He has since added it as an option to the listing, presumably because I was able to report that it fitted. So perhaps he can do the same with 3X.

 

Other than that I'm not sure I have much to add. Presumably you have already decided that you must have dual, otherwise an UM2 or 2+ is an excellent choice and one that can be cheaply (say $100) converted to 1.75.

 

Cheers

[SandervG 1,521]

1 minute ago, jonatanrullman said:

I'm thinking of making a small writeup about my conversion at a later date.

 

That would be very interesting and much appreciated! 

 

1 minute ago, jonatanrullman said:

Excellent doors, though he doesn't list UM3X as an option.

 

Note that you can not use an Ultimaker 2Extended door on an Ultimaker 3 Extended. While the frame may look a like, the print head actually sticks out further on the front and would bump into an Ultimaker 2 Extended door. 

 

[jonatanrullman 17]

Just now, SandervG said:

That would be very interesting and much appreciated!

 

I will start thinking about it quite seriously then. :-)

 

1 minute ago, SandervG said:

Note that you can not use an Ultimaker 2Extended door on an Ultimaker 3 Extended. While the frame may look a like, the print head actually sticks out further on the front and would bump into an Ultimaker 2 Extended door.

 

The print head actually sticks out through the front? Weird design.

Like I said, I have never even seen an UM3 in real life so what do I know. Would love to play around with one for an afternoon though and get a feel for it. I guess my three upgraded UM2's is somewhat of a statement of my liking for the machine. I was actually called a "brand boy" by a Prusa MK2 owner the other week, but he meant it well. Still, the UM3 is a bit rich for my taste. Perhaps sometime in the future when they start to show up used. :-)

[gr5 2,265]

If you get a UM3 and have tried it out with 2.85mm filament and are ready to convert, contact me.  You might be able to get a free conversion from 3dsolex but contact me first and let me talk to Carl at 3dsolex.  I think Carl would be happy to sell these "conversion cores" but he needs some people to experiment with it first before he can make it an official product.

 

I actually have a customer in USA who wants to convert to 1.75 so I should know much more in a few weeks.  For example how good the "plus" feeder (found on UM2+ and UM3) will work with 1.75mm.  It should be fine but I haven't tried it myself.

 

[jonatanrullman 17]

9 minutes ago, gr5 said:

For example how good the "plus" feeder (found on UM2+ and UM3) will work with 1.75mm.  It should be fine but I haven't tried it myself.

 

Literally ten seconds before I got a notification about your reply I finished publishing the modified feeder I use on my converted UM2. I'm guessing one would prefer to use the original feeder as that design is quite nice or so I've heard. But the way I solved it (nothing genius or new about it really) might give you a brainwave.

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/alternate-iroberti-feeder-body-for-1-75mm-filament

Edited January 19, 2018 by jonatanrullman

[gr5 2,265]

That's a nice feeder but it won't work on plus style feeders that they have on UM2+ and UM3.  The plus feeders have a gear at the end of the motor shaft instead of the knurled or splined sleeve.

[jonatanrullman 17]

18 minutes ago, gr5 said:

That's a nice feeder but it won't work on plus style feeders that they have on UM2+ and UM3.  The plus feeders have a gear at the end of the motor shaft instead of the knurled or splined sleeve.

 

I knew that. Deep down. There had to be a reason I prefer UM2. :-)

 

I don't have a 2+ feeder to hand or I could have had a look at it. I imagine that the tension with 1.75mm could be much too low. It's hard to see on the photos but one problem with the original parts on the UM2 with 1.75 is that there is no groove to keep the filament in place. So it tends to jump off. This can be rectified with a tighter throat but with the 2+ feeder the options for modifications might be quite slim.
Is there any chance that the larger gear could be removed and implemented into a completely new feeder design? Possibly a gearbox housing with a iRoberti feeder on top. On my UM2 the power from the motor works just fine, though I use a gearbox for 2.85mm, but I don't think there is any harm in having one depending on how much it lowers the max speed. A friend of mine has an Anet A8 that is bowden converted and he uses a iRoberti feeder because he really likes the design. But his motor couldn't cope without gearing so we fitted a Meduza gearbox and that works a treat. The difference a 0.9 quality motor does over a 1.8 chinese no name I guess.

 

I can't find any designs at all that modify the 2+ feeder for 1.75 except one using bondtech that Neotko has put together. On the off chance that someone, preferably in Europe, has a spare 2+ feeder they'd be willing to donate I'd be happy to pay for postage and donate the time to see if I can make a reasonable 1.75 conversion. Though I wouldn't be able to properly try it out since I don't have a 2+ motor of course, that is a bit of a drawback. If there's any interest in it. I don't think I'd be using it myself as I'm happy enough with my current solution.
 

Cheers

Edited January 19, 2018 by jonatanrullman

[gr5 2,265]

Okay well you should look at this document here @jonatanrullman and look at how one person did what you describe.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1MEUY39HCaE44NnExeDJqRlE/view

 

Which I found in a link on this web page:

http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits/ultimaker/ddg-extruder_ultimaker2_en.html

 

[jonatanrullman 17]

1 hour ago, gr5 said:

Okay well you should look at this document here @jonatanrullman and look at how one person did what you describe.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1MEUY39HCaE44NnExeDJqRlE/view

 

Which I found in a link on this web page:

http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits/ultimaker/ddg-extruder_ultimaker2_en.html

 

 

Martin Bondeus actually lives about one and a half hours drive from me. :-)
He makes great stuff, but slightly overpriced I feel personally. I'm sure his products would have saved me a bit of headache, but when I have had problems with grinding it has seldom been directly because of the grip from the drive gear but other factors. I'm not sure how many of those situations would have been too much even for the dual system to handle.

Anyway. I'm happy with my current solution. It seems to be working very well. But since I only have UM2s and no plans of buying a 2+ it won't, like you pointed out, work. I added my offer as an afterthought if anyone happened to have a 2+ feeder left over (possibly half broken or something) but didn't feel like giving a 1.75 mod a go I'd be willing to try for the greater good.

Personally I think going to 1.75 has been great. I have had so much trouble with too tightly wound spools and different problems with 2.85mm. The 1.75 has so far been a breeze. But as I've only done about 200 hours of printing since the conversion I shall perhaps reserve judgement on the long term reliability of the mod for another couple of months. Right now I'm trying to put and end to all my left over 2.85mm filament so that I can convert a second machine.

 

Anyway. We seem to have strayed somewhat off the topic of this thread. I wish I could of more assistance when it comes to the UM3 but unfortunately I have not even seen one. While I can speak with at least some experience about the feeder side of the arrangement the updated head and print cores is a closed book to me.

 

Cheers

[Brulti 177]

Back on topic a bit, to add another testimony for @Bossler.

 

I'v bought a UM3E about 6 months ago, after much time spent looking online, reading reviews and so on, comparing with other brands and even other technologies (resin, metal sintering, etc). I've been quite happy with the machine itself, and the support from my local (French) reseller has been nothing short of awesome.

 

The printer has seen quite a lot of use in 6 months, I experimented with every material that UM currently offers, and I've even started trying other materials, like UV reactant and such.

 

The few problems I had were quickly resolved, thanks to the forums (the dry box for material by @ultiarjan was a real life saver), or the support from @MakershopFR who replaced the bent glass bed I received with my printer quickly.

 

It's my first printer, still learning the ropes, sometimes doing stupid things, but I'm quite happy with the product and I think you will be too.

[kmanstudios 1,120]

6 minutes ago, Brulti said:

It's my first printer, still learning the ropes, sometimes doing stupid things.......

Ha! One year in and I am still doing the same! So much to learn.

[Bossler 8]

Wow - thank you all for so much information!

 

Sending back my R3D tomorrow so I'll have a clear view then -
and space for a replacement;-)

[kmanstudios 1,120]

54 minutes ago, Bossler said:

Wow - thank you all for so much information!

 

Sending back my R3D tomorrow so I'll have a clear view then -
and space for a replacement;-)

Just so's you know's, I just got my second one and it will be delivered today. The ex came over and helped me get the space a bit better organized and set up end tables so they can sit side by side. Nobody wants a lonely printer. My one worry is that they will communicate over the wifi and gang up on me.....forget skynet...it is printnet we need to be wary of!!