Why don't people recommend Hairspray for PLA?

[exforma23 12]

I'm new to the UM3 and have a lot of experience with ABS and hairspray for bed adhesion with a prior printer. Since I got the UM3 I've been been printing PLA and have been less than satisfied with how reliable pva glue is. I tried the gluestick, schmearing it around etc. thin coats, thick coat. I tried a 10/1 mix of old fashioned Elmer's glue brushed on.

Keep in mind that I prefer to avoid using a brim if at all possible. Ideally, I prefer to set up my geometry and print settings so that I have no clean-up whatsoever.

Finally, just for the heck of it, I tried the old can of "Aqua Net Extra Super Hold" that I still have from my ABS prints...

EUREKA!

Bed adhesion far superior to glue options, Print is glass smooth on the bottom with not schmear marks. Just pop in into the fridge after is done and it just falls off the glass.

Why is this not the method of choice for use with PLA?

I can't see any downside.

[neotko 1,417]

The only downside is that it can stick way too much to the point of actually chipping the glass if isn't properly cold.

I use for pla when I need max fans, since my fans are much more powerful than the um2/um3 ones.

I use this trick to remove the pla/platec/flexibles after using a coat of hairspray

https://ultimaker.com/en/community/33206-greentec-pla-easy-removal-after-hairspray

[yellowshark 153]

We do, you must be lookig at the wrong threads:)! I have used PLA/hairspray for 3 years + on a glass bed. I find actually that it is easy to remove a piece even with the plate being warm. I can take it off the bed, set at 60-65, lay it on a table and after 30-60secs it will come off. Ofc that will be affected by your nozzle to plate distance and removing the plate from the printer straightaway has shrinkage implications.

And of course it is so easy to apply, has good longevity and is easy to clean off 8)

Edited March 23, 2017 by Guest

[geert_2 557]

I was about to say that neotko *does* promote hair spray and has a video of it. But he was faster.

I use the "salt method": after cleaning the glass plate with water, gently wipe it with a tissue moistened with salt water. Gently keep wiping while it dries into a thin, almost invisible mist of salt stuck to the plate.

For me, this gives excellent bonding of colorFabb and Ultimaker PLA, and still good but not perfect bonding of ICE PLA.

When hot, it bonds like cyanoacrylate. But when cold, the models come off by themselves and are sitting totally loose on the plate.

For the full manual with photos, see the PDF file at:

https://www.uantwerpen.be/nl/personeel/geert-keteleer/manuals/

For ABS this does not work at all: it starts foaming and splattering, I don't know why (maybe because of the water in the salt?)

For PET it works a bit: it reduces bonding strenght a little bit, but makes it much easier to remove the models after cooling down: they don't get stuck to the plate anymore.

I also tried the dilluted wood glue method for PET: it gave a super bonding, but once tore a piece of glass out of the bed. So I am a bit reluctant to use that, if not absolutely necessary.

[exforma23 12]

Thanks for all the input!

This is definitely plenty more options to think about (especially neotko's glass cleaner exothermic deal)

I've done about 5 prints with my aqua net and it's working perfectly and falling off when it gets down to temp in the freezer. I am, however, noticing the warp with the rapid cooling.

 

I think I'll buy a 2nd glass build plate so that I can pull out a build and set it aside to patiently cool. Hopefully, this will mitigate the rapid cool warp effects. This way I can keep the printer humming.

I just can't stand to see it sitting idle. :-)

[neotko 1,417]

I will do a write about something I'm testing atm. I bought Neoceram glass plate, on a shop that sells custom size and 4mm. So far I'm just amazed. I can get greentec to stick without any hairspray, this glass has the interesting property of not changing of size when heating up. I will write on other post about this, but so far 3 days of production, zero issues. But for pla I need to put some windowasher (plain water also works) to release it without doing force (because I want it to last as much as possible).

So.. Amazed so far by this neoceram glass (is used on fireplaces).

Oh other advantage very important, it can withstand a 800C heat impact, and doesn't loose integrity like tempered glass when exposed to heat/cold. So, so far, amazing. But this needs more testing.

Oh also, is cheaper than UM glass...

[exforma23 12]

noetko,

Fireplace glass that I have used (on my fireplace), on a microscopic level, is porous. The claim is that it allows for better direct heat transfer while also being more heat resistant.

I wonder if Neoceram glass is. I would expect that would help with adhesion.

One thing I will say about having "bulletproof" adhesion with hairspray is that there is noticeable improvement in overall print quality throughout the print. With PVA, I was experiencing less than optimal adhesion. It was most noticeable in the support layers. Since the support layers have very little surface contact, l could see slight "rounding" of sharp corners. I wouldn't have known that this was a clue of not great adhesion until I tried the hairspray. With the hairspray, support corners are sharp and remain sharp for the full height. Now I see how it's supposed to look.

[neotko 1,417]

Exactly that rounding is what I get on greentec when I don't use hairspray. For pla I seen that when using fans at full very close to the bed. Indeed hairspray is a very easy and reliable solution IMO.

Also indeed it has a slightly 'frosted' texture. Doesn't fell by hand so the texture must be really really small.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Guest

[yellowshark 153]

I think I'll buy a 2nd glass build plate so that I can pull out a build and set it aside to patiently cool. Hopefully, this will mitigate the rapid cool warp effects.  This way I can keep the printer humming.

I just can't stand to see it sitting idle. :-)

 

Yup I have thought about that but think it will take longer for that 2nd plate to get up to temoerature. If I am doing a production run, maybe 50 pieces, I cannot wait too long in between each print. I take out the plate on completion, room is circa 22 degrees ambient, and lay it on a glass table. The plate is down to circa 45 degrees in say 5-6 mins and off the piece pops and the plate is back up to 60/65 5 or so minutes later - the first thing I do when the print completes is to raise the bed temp up to 90+ ready to warm the plate quickly when it is put back.

[RocketNut 1]

I use aquanet extra hold no scent or suave extra hold for filament types.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Guest

[Daid 306]

I can't see any downside.

Health and safety. The hazardous material measurement people loved it, as they had finally something harmful to measure in our office.

There is also an possible case of a house exploding because of excessive hairspray usage in a 3D printer. But I don't think that's what really happened there.

And hairspray isn't made with the intent to be heated to these temperatures for prolonged times, so no idea what gasses it would emit then.

And then there is the possible effect on axis, belts, bearings. Can't be good if it goes where oil should be going.

[neotko 1,417]

 

I can't see any downside.

Health and safety. The hazardous material measurement people loved it, as they had finally something harmful to measure in our office.

There is also an possible case of a house exploding because of excessive hairspray usage in a 3D printer. But I don't think that's what really happened there.

And hairspray isn't made with the intent to be heated to these temperatures for prolonged times, so no idea what gasses it would emit then.

And then there is the possible effect on axis, belts, bearings. Can't be good if it goes where oil should be going.

 

Hairspray is just pva. Also, come on men, exploding house!? Did you even read the full article regarding that incident? The guy had flash paper...

Also, you don't need at all to apply it inside the printer, just get a paper towel, hairspray it, and clean the bed with that while is humid.

But indeed. Using ANY stuff without ventilation is dangerous. But is more dangerous to not read the warning signs in RED of the hairspray cans...

[mastory 44]

I've been using Aquanet since I upgraded my UMO to a heated bed. Works well enough that once I tried it, I quite looking for something better. My use is mostly ABS now, but have used it with PLA also with great results. Only takes the lightest dusting on consumer window glass, before mounting the glass. Multiple glass panes are a good idea. If I want continuous running, I pre heat a spare glass in the toaster oven on low heat. The printer is now located in the garage so fumes are less of health issue be they from the filament or spray.

[yellowshark 153]

 

I can't see any downside.

And then there is the possible effect on axis, belts, bearings. Can't be good if it goes where oil should be going.

 

Lol intelligent people take the plate out of the printer to spray it 8)

[exforma23 12]

I'm working on a hood that will contain the spray so I can leave the glass in place.

[Mic_Vox 0]

I've been using a far less superior brand of hairspray... Didn't work too well... Getting clumps after I've used it for a few days. I think I may need to clean the hottend... 

 

On a side note: When using hairspray, even after it drys, it can still maintain it's flammability... Wife's hair + Lighter... Don't ask! Both her and I were surprised at the results... Divorce lawyer (hers) loved it

[gr5 2,173]

You can spray on a tissue and wipe on the bed.  Or you can remove the glass, spray, insert the glass.  I don't like getting the spray on the z screw.

[exforma23 12]

I made the spray hood that I showed above. It works perfectly. No overspray at at all and I don't have to remove the glass.  Where I live, "Aqua Net Extra Super Hold" is readily available and cheap. No clumping. I usually apply 2 light coats. I also have a little USB fan that I aim at the bed to speed the drying. Sprays on smooth, as it should, and leaves the mirror finish of the glass as after heating the bed it kind of glosses over smooth. Superior adhesion with PLA to any other method that I have tested including several types of glue stick, glue/water mixes, blue tape, and geckotek surface. Let the plate cool on it's own and the part usually pops right off on its own.

Others have mentioned fumes and/or flamability. However, I don't believe that either of those are a practical concern. Others have mentioned chipping off chunks of buildplate glass. I have never seen anything like that. So, not a practical concern for me either.

I rarely use brims with PLA. I installed a geckotek plate because of the claims about adhesion. In my experience, it works great on nylons and PC and other difficult filaments. But, IMHO, for PLA nothing beats hairspray.

[yellowshark 153]

Lol you young'uns and your health a safety. I come from a generation where we used to clean out our billy cans with a clump of grass and attached earth, a quick swill out with water then cook our stew. I have been testing this for over 4 years now and can guarantee that as long as you keep your bed temp below 500 your printer will not burst into flames. I spray and print with windows closed to maintain consistent ambient temp. and pleased to say I passed my last medical.

[geert_2 557]

Such a hood will help, but it is not enough to prevent the hairspray from getting everywhere in the printer, in the long time. Just try spraying a bright red (easily washable!) paint. Do that ten times. Unless you have extraction, you will see the paint goes everywhere. Way further than you expect. So, preferably do this test on the glass outside of the printer, on a big white sheet of paper.

 

Before the age of 3D-printing, I used to spray silicone moulds with silicone oil as release agent. And even though I had an extraction system, and I used a cardboard box of similar concept like yours (with the extraction at the back of that box), the oil spray went all over the place. Not immediately, but you would notice after a couple of weeks. Silicone oils are non-stick. But sticky stuff like hairspray might cause problems in the rods, bearings and belts, I think. So, spraying on a tissue above the sink, and wiping the glass with that, like gr5 says, seems a better way to me.

 

I was about to say that you could use a vacuum cleaner at lowest power setting for an extraction system for your hood. But this is *not* a good idea. Most vacuum cleaner motors have brushes, creating huge sparks. And most spray cans contain highly flammable pressure gasses. So that would be a recipe for fireworks... If you want any extraction, you definitely need an explosion free system with brushless motors. And a fine filter to stop the glue particles from reaching the motor and fan blades (the gasses will pass the filter anyway, unless you have an appropriate chemical filter).

 

[exforma23 12]

27 minutes ago, geert_2 said:

Such a hood will help, but it is not enough to prevent the hairspray from getting everywhere in the printer, in the long time. Just try spraying a bright red (easily washable!) paint. Do that ten times. Unless you have extraction, you will see the paint goes everywhere. Way further than you expect. So, preferably do this test on the glass outside of the printer, on a big white sheet of paper.

 

Before the age of 3D-printing, I used to spray silicone moulds with silicone oil as release agent. And even though I had an extraction system, and I used a cardboard box of similar concept like yours (with the extraction at the back of that box), the oil spray went all over the place. Not immediately, but you would notice after a couple of weeks. Silicone oils are non-stick. But sticky stuff like hairspray might cause problems in the rods, bearings and belts, I think. So, spraying on a tissue above the sink, and wiping the glass with that, like gr5 says, seems a better way to me.

 

I was about to say that you could use a vacuum cleaner at lowest power setting for an extraction system for your hood. But this is *not* a good idea. Most vacuum cleaner motors have brushes, creating huge sparks. And most spray cans contain highly flammable pressure gasses. So that would be a recipe for fireworks... If you want any extraction, you definitely need an explosion free system with brushless motors. And a fine filter to stop the glue particles from reaching the motor and fan blades (the gasses will pass the filter anyway, unless you have an appropriate chemical filter).

 

Geert,

Fortunately for me, your theory does not apply in practice. I have been printing for 3 years on two different printers using this method. I've done this hundreds of times with no discernable overspray.

[geert_2 557]

Good for you. 

 

Maybe the hairspray particles are bigger, heavier, and/or sprayed more directionally than my silicone oil sprays?

 

[exforma23 12]

11 minutes ago, geert_2 said:

Maybe the hairspray particles are bigger, heavier, and/or sprayed more directionally than my silicone oil sprays?

Keep in mind, I am not liberally hosing down the inside of the printer. I do  a light application with the nozzle right up in the hood, let that layer dry, then do a one more light application. You can see a slight hazy cloud of the spray trapped in the hood. After a few seconds it settles down on the surface.

[geert_2 557]

20 hours ago, exforma23 said:

Keep in mind, I am not liberally hosing down the inside of the printer. I do  a light application with the nozzle right up in the hood, let that layer dry, then do a one more light application. You can see a slight hazy cloud of the spray trapped in the hood. After a few seconds it settles down on the surface.

Yes, that could well be a reason for the observed difference. I had to really saturate the moulds with silicone-oil spray, to get a reasonable life out of them. Silicone rejects water, which is why it is water-tight. But a silicone mould is porous to oils, liquid parafines, and solvents: these leak through it. Don't ask how I found out.

 

So any solvent-like casting material like methylmetacrylate penetrates into the silicone mould itself, polymerises in there, and destroys the mould quite fast. Hence I needed to saturate the moulds with silicone oil prior to casting. A light puff of oil wouldn't do, it really needed to be a good shower. And then of course the mist goes everywhere else too. 

 

[mrussell 1]

On 3/24/2017 at 1:37 AM, neotko said:

Health and safety. The hazardous material measurement people loved it, as they had finally something harmful to measure in our office.

There is also an possible case of a house exploding because of excessive hairspray usage in a 3D printer. But I don't think that's what really happened there.

And hairspray isn't made with the intent to be heated to these temperatures for prolonged times, so no idea what gasses it would emit then.

And then there is the possible effect on axis, belts, bearings. Can't be good if it goes where oil should be going.

 

Hairspray is just pva. Also, come on men, exploding house!? Did you even read the full article regarding that incident? The guy had flash paper...

Also, you don't need at all to apply it inside the printer, just get a paper towel, hairspray it, and clean the bed with that while is humid.

But indeed. Using ANY stuff without ventilation is dangerous. But is more dangerous to not read the warning signs in RED of the hairspray cans...

Yea, I find it hard to believe someone blew up a house hair spray. More likely, they were cooking meth using the butyl-alcohol from a can of hair spray. Meth cookers also use ether.(Which is sold in 12oz cans as starting fluid to start your old carburetor truck on a cold morning.) Its highly volatile, and KNOWN for causing explosions. (Which is why you would avoid it in a lab if you could, but meth-heads cant be choosy and have to take whatever home depot has) I had an organic chem professor that was really scared of ether. He told a story of one of HIS professors that had half of a right hand, basically just the middle and ring fingers. He said that the guy was holding a tiny 25mL (thats about an inch tall) beaker of diethyl-ether and it just "went off" (which is known to happen if its an old bottle and has formed explosive peroxides. ).Its also heavier than air so if you sit a beaker of it on a counter the fumes will collect in sinks, low spots and at counter level, and follow the counter until they come to an ignition source like a Bunsen burner. (no flames ANYWHERE in a lab using those kinds of solvents)  I bet tweaker dude was spazzing out, dreaming about the awesome fix he was going to get when his batch was finished, and rushing through the synthesis, probably following line by line a dubious recipe he got of the internet, without bothering to read through the instructions and plan out each step first. (Meth heads are not known for patience, or planning for forethought)  Then he likely did something like,  take two cans of ether and big coffee cup out the freezer, empty them into them into the cup and sit it on the counter. Ether followed the counter to the pilot light of the stove or followed the floor to the water heater, (or maybe he just sad the lit cigarette hanging from his mouth on the edge of the counter) and BOOM. Once again Darwin is proven correct. 

 

 

On the actual subject of this thread, I dont think there is a problem heating hair spray. If small amounts of heated hair spray degraded to cause a problem, it would not be usable. Women use a blow drier on a head of hair with hair spray all the time. While its normally not heated to the temperatures of the filament it might readily be heated to the temperature of the heated bed by a hair drier. But if it was toxic,it would be a real problem in hair salons. I used to work in a industrial hygiene lab testing chemical samples from workplaces. (An inspector would go to the work-site put a monitoring device on someone that would collect a sample of the chemicals that were in the air to sample what the employee was breathing then send it to the lab to be analyzed) I dont recall ever having anything related to degradation products of hair sprays come in. The butyl-alchohol could be an issue if you upended the can and inhaled it, or if you discharged the whole can in a closed bathroom. Your only using a bit though, probably less than you use for hair so its not a big deal. (dont use "Aircraft paint remover" in a closed bathroom with no fan to strip the paint off an old intake manifold. Dont ask me how I know, just dont do it)

 

On the subject of the backup heated bed has to preheat when taken off the machine taking time, one thought is to find out what power the heated bed needs and what voltage it runs at. There are temperature controllers on eBay for something like 5 bucks. Get the proper connector and make a harness to connect to the heated bed. Then as soon as the part comes out of the freezer, put the heated bed on the temp controller to bring it up to temperature. 

 

The talk of putting it in the freezer actually makes me reconsider the first idea I had for making my own heated bed. I was thinking of putting a big (or several big) thermometric coolers on the bottom of the bed, sandwiched between two sheets of 1/4" aluminum. (my bed area is small,for larger you might want some angle stock to reinforce or a 3/8 sheet. The coolers would be able to drive a temperature gradient between those two pieces quite rapidly. The only issue would be overheating, becuase each time you pump heat from one side to the other, you also add a bunch of extra heat, so you would put a fan on the bottom plate to get rid of the extra, as well as keeping it from going so far below ambient that you start getting condensation.  To release the part, just take it down near freezing and it should pop free. Then reverse the voltage and the plate should get hot fast.